My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Original"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Observations => Topic started by: Paddy on November 27, 2010, 07:07:51 PM
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While working on my cooling system, after I removed the radiator and hoses I moved to remove the elbow water outlet on the top of the cylinder head. The prior owner beat me to it and when they replaced the elbow water outlet they replaced one of the bolts with a non spec bolt that I broke the head off of. I was able to remove the elbow water outlet, and discovered there was no thermostat in it.
Two questions: (1) Any advice on how to remove the bolt frozen in the cylinder head? I have about 1/2 an inch protruding and it's currently soaking in WD-40. My thought was to allow it soak over night, then attempt to turn it out with a pair of vice grips.
(2) Am I correct in believing there is supposed to be a thermostat underneath the elbow water outlet?
Thanks.
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You must be related to my dad..... ;)
That's exactly what he thought (apparently, I found his "whoopsie" long after he passed on). He put the thermostat on the cylinder head and thought the elbow held it in place. When I pulled the elbow off last week during my rebuild is when I found the stat flipped on it's side.
The 'stat is actually UP in the elbow, right before the 90 degree bend. It's held in place by the retainer.
Please take note that I'm not making fun of you by your question. Reading it reminded me of my dad, it made me think of him and smile. I meant no offense.
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take about an 8 oz hammer and tap on the end of the broken bolt several times. Then clamp the vise grips tightly on it and gently move it back and forth but don't try to turn it if it refuses to turn. Let it soak another day and tap on it again and try to turn it. When it starts turning don't go any farther than it will turn easily. Keep working it back and forth until you work it out. Try to turn it out more than you turn it back.
If that fails use a propane torch or an oxy/acetylene torch and heat the area around the bolt just a little more than it takes to melt a wax candle on the bolt threads. Let the wax soak in and the bolt cool as you try to move the bolt.
I hope they didn't force a fine thread bolt in the coarse threads.
When you put new bolts in use some anti seize on the bolts. Use a 160-170 deg thermostat and a 7 psi radiator cap. Be sure and put the motor on the thermostat toward the head.
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Hey thanks no worries. I actually read the mechanics manual and the parts list and understand that it's held in place by the "thermostat retainer." I found them both of course on line at Walck's. But just so I understand the thermostat actually is place up inside the elbow water outlet and is then held "up there" in place by the thermostat retainer, is that correct?
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Carlsjeep. In comparing the thread on the top of the broken bolt to the threads on the bolts that I was able to remove they both appear to be the same course thread.
Not that I understand the markings on the tops of the bolts but the one that broke has a different marking, and I suspect that indicates that they used a weaker bolt.
Any thought why they would have operated the engine without a thermostat?
And would operating the engine without a thermostat cause any issues/damage of concern and if so, what?
Thanks
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Some take the thermo out because the engine may be running hot. without the thermo the engine has a hard time getting up to operating temp.
The lines on the head of a bolt tell the hardness. No lines or two lines is a grade 2, three lines is a grade 5. and each line above three adds a grade number. So what you do is count the lines on the head and add two and that is the grade of the bolt.
If that broken bolt is a grade 2 be very careful trying to remove it.
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when you replace the thermostat, do not get the cheap one sold at walcks. �It does not contain an air relief valve and will allow an air pocket to form at the top of the engine and allow it to vapor lock and overheat. �Get a thermostat with an air relief valve. �About $2 more. �These tall engines are prone to form air pockets. �The little 1/8" diameter brass tab in the theremostat is the air relief valve. �
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/peeb1964/DSCN2926.jpg)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/peeb1964/thermoretainer.jpg)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/peeb1964/DSCN2924.jpg)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/peeb1964/DSCN2923.jpg)
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Wonderful, it's a grade 2; it has no lines on it. Other than WD 40 any other penetrating lubricant that you can recommend?
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Doug, thanks for the great photos and the recommendation on the air relief valve thermostat.
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Take a nut place it on top of the bolt that is broke, weld the nut on to the broken bolt. Then you can take a socket and turn it out carefully. Some one elses trick I am just passing it on.
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That works real good and what it does is when the nut is welded on the bolt gets hot and expands and loosens the bolt in the hole.
There's a lot of ways to remove broken bolts and it seems I always got the job of removing broken bolts in the shops I worked in.
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Take a nut place it on top of the bolt that is broke, weld the nut on to the broken bolt. �Then you can take a socket and turn it out carefully. �Some one elses trick I am just passing it on.
Here's my problem with that, I already got to work on the bolt before this recommendation and stripped the threads, and I mean stripped them beyond repair. Next issue is I don't have a MIG welder. I soaked it all day, today, tapped it with a ball-peen hammer, heated it ever so slightly with a propane torch, just enough to melt a candle, etc. still no success.
Also drilled into the bolt and try to "grab" it with a bolt extractor, which broke inside the hole I drilled.
Any other recommendations, and or should I go back with a little more heat? I still have a 1/2 inch to work with.
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The nut does not screw on, it goes on top and you weld it on through the center of the nut. �If you mess the nut up too much welding it on, weld another on top of that nut. Do your best on the first nut as it has to hold on to the bolt and not break off.
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Paddy, that's just about where I would get the job. Man, did I hate starting from there.
The following requires you to have a welder so here goes.
Well, take a nut that is the size the bolt is. If it's a 3/8" coarse thread use a 3/8" coarse nut and drill the threads out of the nut so it slips over the bolt. put the nut on the bolt and weld the nut to the bolt. You can put a box wrench on the nut and try moving it but DON'T force it. As it cools it may start turning and if it does be careful to not break it off. PB blaster and liquid wrench are good penetrating oils and there are others. You can continue to tap lightly on the nut and soak it with penetrating oil and trying to move it. �Be sure you tap straight down on the nut, do not use glancing blows or it will break off.
If all this fails you will have to find someone to drill out the easy out with a carbide drill bit then drill the bolt out and retap the hole or put a heli coil in the hole. That is a job for someone that has experience doing it. It's not something to try for the first time.
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Also drilled into the bolt and try to "grab" it with a bolt extractor, which broke inside the hole I drilled.
If necessary, pay someone to weld the nut on and hope there is enough of the bolt to weld to. Trying to MIG weld to a hardened extractor is a PITA.
Please don't take this personally. I'm saying this for the future benefit of everyone reading this thread. Do NOT ever use extractors, not ever. With very rare exception, it will break and make the problem worse. My personal opinion is the bloody things should be taken off the market.
Here's how to remove a broken bolt if you do not have anything sticking above the surface to weld a nut to.
Very, very carefully drill a small hole dead center through the broken bolt/stud being careful not to drill into the block/head.
Now pick a slightly larger drill bit and drill through the same hole.
Repeat the process with increasingly larger drill bits until you reach the point where you have removed the metal to the point where just the bolt/stud threads themselves are left.
Use an icepick to work the remaining bolt/stud threads loose from the threads in the block/head. Be patient. A small pointed punch can also be used. Once those threads are worked out, you can run a thread chaser in the hole to clean it up. Do NOT use a thread chaser for head retainer bolt holes in the block.
There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole.
Clear as mud? � :)
Larry
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I have got to agree with Larry on the extractors. The only luck I have had with them is donating more blood to my garage floor ;D
Heat and pb blaster have served me well in the past. As a last resort, I have followed Larry's procedure to drill out bolts, but you have to be VERY careful and drill the bolt square. Above all else, know your limits (and your tools) and call a machine shop if you get in over your head. The small fee they may charge will seem like a deal when compared to trying to find another OE head in good shape.
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Thanks all on this.
Here's the update. It's out!
But here's the catch. The numbnut who used a soft bolt left a broke bolt below it, I believe, unless you tell me that one of the bolts holding the coolant outlet elbow is shorter than the other two.
I got out this evening by applying heat for about 2-3 minutes with a propane torch. I shielded the surrounding areas with foil (worked well) then let the bolt cool a little, applied some more lubricant then gently, very gently began to turn it and was very concerned that I was about to twist/torque the remaining bolt but as I very slowly turned and watched I could see that the bolt within the sleeve of the threads was in fact turning.
Now, how do I "extract" the remaining bolt that the last guy left?
I understand the concept of drilling, with increasingly large bits, then picking out the remaining bolt from the sleeve threads but how do I do that and know when I'm at the bottom of the bolt and not drilling into the bottom of the cylinder head bolt sleeve?
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"There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole."
So tell me this one again slowly. The left-handed drill bit is something I can pick up at a hardware store or Sears? And when I use it do I run my drill in reverse as well?
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Depending on the luck of the draw, some of those outlet mounting holes are through holes and some are blind holes. Just depends on your particular casting and how far they were drilling that day at the factory. Look through the round opening and see if you can see the bottom of the bolt. Can you reach through the water outlet hole and try to back it out? Are you sure it is a bolt you are seeing or is it simply the bottom of the hole.
When you say the bolt is shorter because it is bottoming out on an old broken off bolt, just how long is the bolt you removed? How many threads were holding. This is not a motor mount it is a water outlet elbow under 5 psi pressure held down by three bolts. It may be fine if the bolt you removed is long enough to hold. Probably 4 or 5 threads is enough to hold.
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Doug,
I understand the bolt is not a motor mount but one of three holding the water outlet to the cylinder head. With that said when I reach through the outlet hole I can feel the bottom of the bolt "sleeves"; the bolts don't travel "through" the cylinder head. When I place an unbroken bolt in the suspect "sleeve" and through the elbow it doesn't tighten down the length of the bolt and while I didn't count the number of threads "above" the elbow, I'd call it at about 4-5. It's definitely shallow.
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If you cannot get the broken bolt out, you can use a washer under the bolt head to take up the slack so that it will tighten down. �If you are sure it is a bolt that is broken off down in the hole, you could use the drilling and picking technique others mentioned to try to get it out or just try to use it as it is and don't overtighten that bolt. Also, as others mentioned, there is always a machine shop. What is a major undertaking for us and a nerve racking event, is just another 30 minutes work for a machinist. For example they would be using a drill with a base rather than a hand drill, they would have reverse thread bolts, they could put heat to it with an acetylene torch, etc. It may cost you $40 or $80 but it may make you feel better.
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"There is one other thing that can speed this process and that is reverse (left-handed) drill bits. Here's why, if the drill is running backwards there's a decent chance that at some point it may actually spin the remaining bolt/stud out of the hole."
So tell me this one again slowly. �The left-handed drill bit is something I can pick up at a hardware store or Sears? �And when I use it do I run my drill in reverse as well?
Yes, and Yes.
Paddy:
The elbow bolt holes do not go all the way through into the water jacket. The required bolts are size 3/8"-16 x 1 1/8". You're most likely, unless very lucky, not going to find 1 1/8" bolts so what I do is cut down longer ones. By the way, use one lockwasher per bolt and no flat washer.
Larry
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I don't know how many threads there are in the bolt hole but in your case I would use a stud in the hole. That way the stud would be bottomed out in the hole so you could use all the threads you can for strength. most parts stores have studs, so measure how long you need it and get one.
The change of getting the remaining broken bolt out without damaging the threads is slim using a hand drill and even a left hand drill to remove it is unlikely to work. The times a left hand drill removed the bolt an easy out could have done it too. The problem with easy outs is few people know how to use them and even if you are good at using them they can get you in trouble. For a left hand drill to work the bolt has to be loose enough in the threads for it to screw out and that is unlikely.
Use a stud and move to the next problem.
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Good advise Larry. Jim
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Thanks. �I think I'm going to move on and when I get the cylinder head off take it to a machine shop and let the experts handle it.
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While rebuilding mine, I did that a time or too also. Jim
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Larry, I have seen some heads where all the holes were blind bolt holes. For what it's worth, on many of the heads the bolts are through bolts to the water jacket. My Willys civilian head and a GPW head in my possession both have two of the three bolt holes open to the coolant below. I wish there were all blind because mine have been an occassion for leaking and requiring resealing.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/peeb1964/DSCN3890.jpg)
I counted the threads and there was a total of 7-8 threads in each of the through holes.
One other thought on this subject, sometimes machine shops will burn a really stuck low grade steel bolt out of a cast iron block with a oxy torch, I think as a last case scenario. Machine shops have 5 tricks for everyone one that the non-expert has.
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I probably should have said not ALL the holes go through. Usually there's at least one closed. My bad.
For the open holes put thread sealer on the bolts before inserting.
Larry
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The times a left hand drill removed the bolt an easy out could have done it too. �
I'm going to gracefully disagree. Here's why. A tapered extractor functions by applying sideways/outward pressure which is actually detrimental to turning the bolt loose. The harder you apply pressure to the extractor the tighter your making the bolt in the hole.
A reverse drill, however, applies no side pressure in the hole and once the remaining metal is thin enough the drill bit grabs the metal and creates circular pressure on it inducing it to turn. Your odds of spinning the bolt/stud out are significantly greater with a reverse drill.
I'm not saying a reverse drill is the cure-all. What I'm saying is that drilling it out may be the only way to go and if it is, then a reverse drill gives you an edge.
Larry
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Larry, in the hundreds of bolts I have removed there were few times the bolt was loose enough to be removed with a left hand drill bit. 90% of the time the reason the bolt broke off is the threads were frozen together in the hole.
The only times I was successful at using a left hand drill bit was when I could move the broken part with a center punch but it was to deep in the hole to be easy to remove. Then I would try the left hand drill and most the time it worked.
I have removed broken bolts and studs from almost anything you can mention. What I hate is when someone try's to remove it and drills off center, uses an easy out and breaks it off, breaks a drill bit in the bolt or many of the other things people dream up to remove them and only make it worse for the machinist.
I usually start by mounting the part in a mill or drill press and centering in up to drill the bolt. If I can't use a drill press or mill I will do it with a hand drill. When the drill starts into the part if the bolt moves I will then use a left hand drill bit to see if it will come out. If it backs up and stops I then go to a right hand drill and drill a hole through the bolt, soak it with penetrating oil and use a punch that fits in the threaded hole and tap on it a little. Then I take some square easy outs and drive one in and turn the broken part back and forth until it finally comes out. The spiral easy outs are almost worthless.
However, 90% of the time the bolt is frozen in the bolt hole and will not move. I have drilled them and chiseled the remainder out as described by someone, burned them out, used heat and wax and penetrating oil. Most the time removing broken bolts is very hard and takes a lot of patience. Sometimes it would take a week or longer just working on it a few minutes each day until it starts moving.
If you have to get it out fast the only way is to drill it over size and install a heli coil insert or one of the other inserts available. I like removing broken bolts because it is a challenge.
I guess we can agree to disagree though.
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Glad someone enjoys it. That is why my broken manifold/head bolts went straight to the machine shop for removal---to give them great pleasure and satisfaction, while lessing my anxiety. I know my limits. Jim
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Street Rodder Magazine did a test of different penetrating oils and a 50% mix of acetone and auto trans fluid worked better then WD 40, Kroil, or PB Blaster.
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does anyone have the part # for the thermostat with the air relief in it? I went to napa and they didn't have one. I would use a 160-180 deg. thermostat. thanks
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Just drill a 1/16" hole in it.
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Bro. David, I agree with Carl. Just drill a hole in it. �;)
I am using a 180 degree stat and I drilled a 1/8 inch hole in it. It has been working great for the past couple years.
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Bro. David, I agree with Carl. Just drill a hole in it. �;)
I am using a 180 degree stat and I drilled a 1/8 inch hole in it. It has been working great for the past couple years.
Yep.
Larry
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I drilled mine also. Jim
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I had the same problem, only my bolt broke off at the head, I took it to a head shop and for $25.00 they fixed it, bored it out and put in a helicoil. I like that.
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;D thanks guys, I'll drill a hole in it.
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FYI: One of the duties of a thermostat, besides the obvious, is to restrict the water flow volume that the pump can produce, to a level that it has a chance to absorb head heat as much as possible, and gives the radiator a chance to cool the same liquid. Without this restriction, the coolant can flow so fast through the head and radiator, it cannot do its job of absorbing the head heat and transfering that heat through the radiator cooling fins to the atmosphere. In some cases you can actually overheat your engine without a thermostat installed. Jim