My Willys 3A and 3B Community
3A, 3B, DJ Technical Knowledge Base => "Modifications"-- Technical Questions, Answers, Incites => Topic started by: Ryan_M on March 22, 2013, 09:09:33 PM
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We've all seen various ways to install front turn signals. Like many others, I wanted front signals without sacrificing parking lights while still having it appear stock. I found some cheapo generic sockets at NAPA that I managed to make fit without having to create any additional brackets. I did have to bore out the stock parking light hole (which was extremely painful, but necessary). The problem was I couldn't get the lens to fit back flush over a dual filament 6v bulb. As suggested on a previous 2A page thread, I ordered a pair of 6V LED bulbs from superbrightleds.com that have a slightly shorter length. They are just short enough that the lens and bezel fit as they should. I'm still chasing some wiring gremlins to get everything blinking in the correct places at the correct times but the physical fit works pretty well.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2068_zps32adde3a.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2067_zps17e7d19b.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2066_zps1c28e9b6.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2071_zpsa3802f98.jpg)
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Very cool Ryan!
One one of our work trucks, the old rear incandescent bulbs burned so we replaced them with LEDs. That caused the blinkers to blink really fast like the flasher was bad. So I had to swap them back to incandescent. That might be what you have going on.
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Very cool Ryan!
One one of our work trucks, the old rear incandescent bulbs burned so we replaced them with LEDs. That caused the blinkers to blink really fast like the flasher was bad. So I had to swap them back to incandescent. That might be what you have going on.
Looks like you are onto something Nate. I just put the incandescent bulbs back in and everything blinks as it should. �In addition to flasher oddities, with the LED's installed the parking lights come on with the headlights. With the incandescent bulbs installed, the parking lights turn off when the headlights are on just like they are supposed to. Why would the LED lights make a difference?
I may be modifying the light sockets to accommodate incandescent bulbs after all.
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Your guess it as good as mine. LEDs are kinda strange like that. I wired my headlight switch so the parking lights stay on with the headlights. LEDs would be nice, but they seem like more of a pain than it is worth.
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Nicely done Ryan!! I like that better than my approach. By the way, I'd lend you my tractor anytime you would need it, as long as I could get free rides in that Willys of yours.
Tim
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This LED idea is definitely a bust. I would delete the entire thread but I suppose I'll leave it up here to save anyone else from trying it. Besides, it also contains a written offer from Tim that I get to use his tractor � ;D
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If I was to take a WAG, I would say that the LEDs are drawing more or less, probably less, power than the regular bulb uses. Somehow, this is screwing up the flasher. I haven't the slightest idea as to how that works.
Ryan, since you have the stuff, try wiring both fronts to signal at the same time, kinda like 4-way emergencies. So if you say, signal right, both will come on and flash. I bet the problem will go away. I know the 4 ways worked fine on our truck with the LEDs.
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There are ways to fix the LED lighting, You'll just have to dig a littl deeper.. I am thinking it involves adding a resistor to the circuit which would be easy to hide. but as for what ohm value of it I dunno.
I'd keep after it as those LED light should last as long as the jeep now.
I'd try and help look it up in the net for ya but I gotta get to work shoveling the snow off my escort truck here in Wray, Colorado this AM...
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And the problem in a a nutshell is they draw way too little juice. You either have to use a flasher wired for them or add a load to make the flasher think they are regular bulbs. As far as them lighting up with the headlights, they may actually be lighting up on stray current, you HL switch may be a little dirty inside.
I have heard of guys adding a regular bulb in series to make them work but that would be backwards to me, It would be a good troubleshooting method tho..
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To remedy the fast blinking LED's, go get an electronic flasher at any auto store
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Here's an interesting page about it.:
http://www.squidoo.com/adding-load-resistors-for-led-turn-signal-light-bulbs
If you do come up with a solution that works well in the 3A,please let us know, as this is a great thread to put in a FAQ file for those who are adding turn signals. :D
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Led draws way less than a reg bulb.
You could use a small resistor, to make up the difference.
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I struck out today trying to find either a 6V electric flasher or the right size resistors locally. If I do replace the flasher I will undoubtedly have to upgrade the rear lights to LED's too. Not sure I want to chase the problem that far. It's looking like modifying the front sockets again to fit the regular bulbs will be an easier task with a more guaranteed outcome.
Regardless, the over drive unit has arrived from my new friend Herm so that'll be the main project for the rest of the weekend.
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Ryan, I made spacers to space out the lenses on my '53. You could make some sort of spacer on a lathe if you have one or know someone with one. That is what I want to do eventually with aluminum.
I made 8 of these on a plasma cam, 4 per side. Each were an 1/8" thick.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/1953%20Willys%20CJ3A%20Jeep%20Restoration/100_5455.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/1953%20Willys%20CJ3A%20Jeep%20Restoration/100_5457.jpg)
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Does anyone know where I can find a 6V electronic flasher with only 3 terminals? My current thermal flasher (32CP-MAX6) has three terminals marked "P", "L", and "X". Because I followed the instructions when I bought the turn signal, I know how and why these terminals connect to the wires on my Jeep. Beyond that, I'm lost.
I was hoping to find a new 6V flasher for my LED's with the same terminal configuration so I could just plug it in and go. The only 6V elec flasher I have been able to find (online or otherwise) has 5 terminals. The terminals are marked "30", "85", "86", "87", and "87a".
I've tried every conceivable combination of connecting my three wires to these 5 terminals and can't get it to work (yes, I know electrical experimentation can make things go "poof") . I'm not even sure if this flasher can be made to work or if it is completely incompatible.
I put LED's in the tail lights as well as the parking light/turn signals in order to rules out any inconsistencies with different bulbs.
If anyone has a source for three terminal 6V electronic flashers or suggestions on how I can make use of my 5 terminal one please let me know. Thanks.
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Ryan, the truck I had mentioned earlier uses a 5 prong flasher. 2 of the prongs are for the 4 way emergencies. I do not know which two they are. That is all the info I have!
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Ryan, the truck I had mentioned earlier uses a 5 prong flasher. 2 of the prongs are for the 4 way emergencies. I do not know which two they are. That is all the info I have!
Yeah I was hoping the "extra" two terminals were for auxiliary lights that I don't have and could just be ignored. No such luck. I'm thinking maybe I need to use a jumper of some sort to tie some of them together but I'm not brave enough to go experimenting that blindly. I don't like the smell of electrical smoke.
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Does anyone know where I can find a 6V electronic flasher with only 3 terminals? My current thermal flasher (32CP-MAX6) has three terminals marked "P", "L", and "X". Because I followed the instructions when I bought the turn signal, I know how and why these terminals connect to the wires on my Jeep. Beyond that, I'm lost.
I was hoping to find a new 6V flasher for my LED's with the same terminal configuration so I could just plug it in and go. The only 6V elec flasher I have been able to find (online or otherwise) has 5 terminals. The terminals are marked "30", "85", "86", "87", and "87a".
I've tried every conceivable combination of connecting my three wires to these 5 terminals and can't get it to work (yes, I know electrical experimentation can make things go "poof") . I'm not even sure if this flasher can be made to work or if it is completely incompatible.
I put LED's in the tail lights as well as the parking light/turn signals in order to rules out any inconsistencies with different bulbs.
If anyone has a source for three terminal 6V electronic flashers or suggestions on how I can make use of my 5 terminal one please let me know. Thanks.
That's a relay. Will not really work as a flasher.
Why do you need 5 terminals??
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Does anyone know where I can find a 6V electronic flasher with only 3 terminals? My current thermal flasher (32CP-MAX6) has three terminals marked "P", "L", and "X". Because I followed the instructions when I bought the turn signal, I know how and why these terminals connect to the wires on my Jeep. Beyond that, I'm lost.
I was hoping to find a new 6V flasher for my LED's with the same terminal configuration so I could just plug it in and go. The only 6V elec flasher I have been able to find (online or otherwise) has 5 terminals. The terminals are marked "30", "85", "86", "87", and "87a".
I've tried every conceivable combination of connecting my three wires to these 5 terminals and can't get it to work (yes, I know electrical experimentation can make things go "poof") . I'm not even sure if this flasher can be made to work or if it is completely incompatible.
I put LED's in the tail lights as well as the parking light/turn signals in order to rules out any inconsistencies with different bulbs.
If anyone has a source for three terminal 6V electronic flashers or suggestions on how I can make use of my 5 terminal one please let me know. Thanks.
That's a relay. Will not really work as a flasher.
Why do you need 5 terminals??
I don't need 5 terminals but it was the only thing even remotely close that I could find. Any idea where I can get a 3 terminal flasher?
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Trico hd13 is what I'm using.
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Trico hd13 is what I'm using.
Do you mean "Tridon HD13"? I can't find one made by Trico. The Tridon HD13 is 12v and they don't appear to have a 6V version. Is you rig 6V or 12V? Are you using LED lights?
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Trico hd13 is what I'm using.
Do you mean "Tridon HD13"? I can't find one made by Trico. The Tridon HD13 is 12v and they don't appear to have a 6V version. Is you rig 6V or 12V? Are you using LED lights?
12v
1157 bulbs up front. Marker and signal.
I have a 6v flasher at my shop.
I will look for it mon morning.
I could send it to you.
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Original equipment turn signal flashers are designed to operate with a certain load. This load is equal to the amount of turn signal bulbs on each side. If a bulb burns out there is less current draw and so the flasher speed changes to let the operator know about the bad bulb. LEDs draw less current than standard bulbs so the flasher thinks a bulb is burned out and it flashes at a different rate. Heavy Duty flashers should flash at the same speed regardless of the load. So at the risk of spending someone else's money this is the first heavy duty flasher I found...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heavy-Duty-3-Prong-6-Volt-Flasher-NEW-/360407063688#vi-content
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Here is another one that I like better...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-Heavy-Duty-Flasher-535-NOS-/200827587192?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec241ca78
The "Heavy Duty" designation comes from the original intended use. When trailer lighting was attached to a vehicle the turn signal speed would be wrong because the load was wrong. True heavy duty flashers do not depend on the load for the flash speed.
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Here is another one that I like better...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ideal-Heavy-Duty-Flasher-535-NOS-/200827587192?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2ec241ca78
The "Heavy Duty" designation comes from the original intended use. When trailer lighting was attached to a vehicle the turn signal speed would be wrong because the load was wrong. True heavy duty flashers do not depend on the load for the flash speed.
Thanks Bob - I shall give this flasher a try. If I had to do it all over again I would have left the original parking light sockets and bulbs intact but simply wired them not to work as parking lights but only as directionals. Since I'm in it this far I might as well see if I can get this LED thing to work. I somehow need to justify that drilling out the parking light holes was a worthwhile mutilation of a perfectly good grill.
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I would have left the original parking light sockets and bulbs intact but simply wired them not to work as parking lights but only as directionals
That's what I did, I'm not exactly sure of the legality of it, for street use, but it works!
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The 6V flasher would be Tridon hd63
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/8BDD5696-B595-4D14-B80C-4583B817B5FF-7095-000007386AADAD22.jpg)
I am using a 3 wire socket/1157 bulb. I will retain park lamps, and signal. With a HD 13 12V flasher.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/72A512A3-B7B1-4F40-8AC5-461631DB1649-7095-000007395736CCB0.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/326F749F-463C-4CCE-9AB9-BA60031CC7C4-7095-000007397DAD90FC.jpg)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/555D81C8-0798-46CF-B9B2-B4D0E5ADC049-7095-000007398C62AFD2.jpg)
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Thanks Kenny, looks like a pretty good set-up. Mine works fine with the 1157 bulbs but it's the LED's that are throwing a wrench in the works. I'm curious on yours - what are you using for parking light lenses?
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Those are the same ones I used on mine. I got them from autozone I think. Kenny, you may need spacers like I had to do.
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Those are the same ones I used on mine. I got them from autozone I think. Kenny, you may need spacers like I had to do.
Actually, mine fit. Im going to make a thin seal, but its fits without..
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Ryan, I believe all the answers you need are scattered through this thread.
1) Go with one of the 6V Heavy Duty units that Bob found.
2) Keep your incandescent lamps in the rear. They will be enough load on the flasher to make it work properly.
3) If you go all LED, then you will need an electronic flasher. Somebody, somewhere probably makes a 6V electronic unit, maybe.
4) We are all guessing why the LEDs work strangely with your headlight switch. I tend to not think it's current leakage, but it could well be that. Not knowing the internal contact configuration, I can't make any statements about contact sharing and other funky things.
Anybody got an original headlight switch I can take apart to see? I'd be happy to make drawings of the guts for future trouble shooting.
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Anybody got an original headlight switch I can take apart to see? I'd be happy to make drawings of the guts for future trouble shooting.
I have ordered the flasher Bob W found and will update again once I have it. For what it's worth, my headlight switch is one I purchased new from Walck's last year.
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John, I have two that are junk that you can have for the cost of shipping.
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I sent you a PM with my address.
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The Heavy Duty 6V Flasher has arrived and has been installed. Results are disappointing. Signals with LED's in both front parking light sockets work for the left side but nothing at all for a signal on the right front. I broke one of my four LED's so I couldn't fully test with LED's in the parking light sockets AND both taillight sockets.
At this point I am officially throwing in the towel on the LED effort. In all honesty, I'm bothered by the look of an illuminated LED behind the parking light lens anyways - you can see each individual LED bulb, which just doesn't look right. I'll be better off further modifying the dual filament 1157 bulb and socket to fit behind the parking light lens.
As a side note, the standard 1157 bulbs do not glow as brightly with the HD flasher as the do with the non-HD flasher.
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Signals with LED's in both front parking light sockets work for the left side but nothing at all for a signal on the right front.
That says to me, "Wiring problem", Maybe you need to trace out all your wiring again just to verify there are no funky wiring faults.
At this point I am officially throwing in the towel on the LED effort. In all honesty, I'm bothered by the look of an illuminated LED behind the parking light lens anyways - you can see each individual LED bulb, which just doesn't look right.
I'd like to encourage you to not give up yet. Unless you need to finish the project right away.
In a week or two at the most, I'll have pictures of our LED conversion - all four corners with an electronic flasher. I'll especially try to get good pics of how the LEDs look shining out through the original lenses.
As a side note, the standard 1157 bulbs do not glow as brightly with the HD flasher as they do with the non-HD flasher.
Now that is weird. A flasher is just a switch, it shouldn't dim the light - just ON or OFF. Why would a standard flasher pass more current than a HD one?
Makes me wonder, again, if there's something funky in your wiring harness.
Or ???
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Every inch of wiring in the entire Jeep is new with a full harness from Kaiser Willys. It is possible there is something wrong somewhere with the install - I realize it doesn't take much to have a big effect with electrical stuff - both good and bad. I'm stumped and, quite frankly, tired of experimenting with it. I have three LED's and a HD flasher for sale cheap if anyone wants to take over ;D
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Thanks for giving it a try Ryan! I still think LEDs do weird things...
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I set out this morning with a cardboard template of a parking light shim similar to what Nate has on his 3A. I discovered that my "go-to" guy for aluminum fab has abruptly retired and vanished. The old school guys are dropping off fast these days. Of course, none of the other shops in town could do it.
I shifted search gears and found some generic rubber-coated-metal wheel bearing seals that are a near exact fit for the task at hand.
$6.
Sold.
I drilled a couple holes in each and mounted them up. Since I have black trim throughout the rest of the Jeep they actually don't look too horrible. A trained Willys enthusiast will spot the fraud almost immediately but for now they'll do the job. Better than the bare bulbs I've been rolling around with for the past month.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2209_zpsa878e770.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2211_zpscd16b04b.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/51%20Willys%20Jeep%20CJ3A%20Rehab/DSCN2212_zps01b33149.jpg)
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One of these days, I'll make up some spacers out of aluminum on the lathe for mine. Maybe I'll get Carl to start making spacers...
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Nate, how were your present spacers made? I would have thought they were a lathe product......
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I cut some shims out on the plasma cam. They work and are not too noticeable. There is just a space between the grille and bezel.
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See Bill.
Ryan, I made spacers to space out the lenses on my '53. You could make some sort of spacer on a lathe if you have one or know someone with one. That is what I want to do eventually with aluminum.
I made 8 of these on a plasma cam, 4 per side. Each were an 1/8" thick.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/1953%20Willys%20CJ3A%20Jeep%20Restoration/100_5455.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx125/willyscjmj/1953%20Willys%20CJ3A%20Jeep%20Restoration/100_5457.jpg)
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Are you guys using white or amber bulbs ?
I did re fit mine, and the lenses do not fit over. Its close, about 1/8"... i have also found short globe 1157 bulbs.
http://waltersworkshop.com/directional-bulbs.html
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I put amber in mine. People were getting confused with the white ones... �::) I wonder how well those shorties would fit?
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Cool! A guinea pig! ;D
If they work, then I'll get some too.
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I put amber in mine. People were getting confused with the white ones... �::) I wonder how well those shorties would fit?
I figured amber as well. The short globes are used in motorcycle applications. I put a call into the local HD dealerer to try and find me some.
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I wonder how well those shorties would fit?
I just ordered some. I will let you know how they fit.
Where from ?
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I have three LED's and a HD flasher for sale cheap if anyone wants to take over �;D
If they were 12V, I'd take you up on it, but none of my Jeeps are still 6V.
If nobody wants to buy them off you, would you be interested in loaning them to me (I'll pay shipping) so I can do some tests on them. I'd like to measure some of the characteristics of those LEDs from Superbright. I'm thinking of using them for my '57 Wagon.
The Superbright web site doesn't go into data like reverse leakage and such. I'd like to make my own measurements for future (and others') reference.
PM me if you're interested.
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For 6V, double filament, try 1154, 1158 or 1188
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I also ordered a pair of stubby led 1157's. I'll wire everything up with the normal 1157 bulbs, to verify operation of the signals, then swap in the LED's. I'll see what happens in 7-11 business days when they arrive... �::)
B1007A is a good part number for the short globe, dual filament bulb.
I ordered 4 of them from the local Harley shop.
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Got the flat stubby led's.. Too big..
Still waiting on the B1007A from Harley..
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Got it all...
Part number from Harley is 2060-0026 12V
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/51%20CJ3A/F8070EDB-8C96-4B01-A8AB-2527675DCE79-543-0000006C185E7EA3.jpg) (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/kennykustom/media/51%20CJ3A/F8070EDB-8C96-4B01-A8AB-2527675DCE79-543-0000006C185E7EA3.jpg.html)
Installed.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/51%20CJ3A/285F6591-03B7-400C-A827-1F3E462F71D3-543-0000006C21B7D11F.jpg) (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/kennykustom/media/51%20CJ3A/285F6591-03B7-400C-A827-1F3E462F71D3-543-0000006C21B7D11F.jpg.html)
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I used a couple o rings on the screws to keep the lens tight.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/51%20CJ3A/018E1DDA-7E99-4CE6-A44D-95C11670110D-543-0000006C2A59B381.jpg) (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/kennykustom/media/51%20CJ3A/018E1DDA-7E99-4CE6-A44D-95C11670110D-543-0000006C2A59B381.jpg.html)
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g147/kennykustom/51%20CJ3A/6E6610E0-8FEF-484D-9219-16705F7E9DA5-543-0000006D4E38194E.jpg) (http://s55.photobucket.com/user/kennykustom/media/51%20CJ3A/6E6610E0-8FEF-484D-9219-16705F7E9DA5-543-0000006D4E38194E.jpg.html)
Everything works. Retained marker light function, and now have signals !!! Please don't hit me !! IM TURNING !!! SEE !!!???
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That's very encouraging. I have the guy from Walter's Workshop (the link you posted here on this thread) supposedly ordering me some. Just an FYI - There's a cork gasket that goes on after the lens. Walck's carries them. If you install one of those on each light you can get rid of your o-rings and have a better chance of keeping the whole thing a little more water resistant.
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That's very encouraging. �I have the guy from Walter's Workshop (the link you posted here on this thread) supposedly ordering me some. Just an FYI - There's a cork gasket that goes on after the lens. Walck's carries them. If you install one of those on each light you can get rid of your o-rings and have a better chance of keeping the whole thing a little more water resistant.
Any Harley Davidson shop can get them, if he cant.
Thanks for the gasket tip !! I didn't know !!!
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Hmmm, I might need to get some. This would look much better!
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Got my clear stubby dual filament bulbs from Walter's Workshop today. They fit as hoped which means no more bezel spacers. Turn signal project finally scratched off the list.
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Yep, I got some stubby ones too from a local Harley dealer. They fit and work great. I like the looks without the spacers I had too.
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Does anyone has an answer for 6 volts bulb?
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Does anyone has an answer for 6 volts bulb?
The ones I bought are 6V.
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What exact 6v bulb did you buy? Is there a brand and part number?
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What exact 6v bulb did you buy?� Is there a brand and part number?
I bought mine here:
http://waltersworkshop.com/directional-bulbs.html
They are the 1156 "Short Globe Bulb Clear".
I'm not sure what the actual brand is. The base of each bulb is stamped "CPI B1006-6V China M8"
I bought 10 so I won't have to worry about them again for awhile....