My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Gearboxes and axles => Topic started by: Goggleeye on October 12, 2018, 09:26:32 PM
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Well, had the jeep running pretty good. Was looking forward to the fall hunting seasons and taking on a few weekend drives. Then it started making some grinding noises on start-up. I knew the ring gear was marginal when I put a rebuilt starter in it, but I was anxious to get some use out of it and didn't really want to tear in to the tranny just yet. But now I guess I have to. I've never done anything like this before, and I'm hesitant to get into something I can't finish, due to skills, tools, or both. I figure if I had to take out the tranny to put on the ring gear, I may as well rebuild the tranny and transfer case while I'm at it. The transmission had been shifting ok, but leaked some (not terrible). It had been sitting for over 12 years, so the seals may have got pretty dry. The tc would pop out of gear when letting off the throttle going down hill. And I would guess the rear main ought to be replaced while we're at it. Money doesn't grow on trees around here, so I need to be frugal, but if this is a job an experienced mechanic could get done in a few hours, I'd almost rather pay to have it done. (we do have a good manual transmission mechanic about 45 min away). I don't really have any knowledgeable friends to help with the job, but I do have a couple kids that are always anxious to get their hands dirty helping dad. Any suggestions? How was it the first time some of you tackled a job like this?
Thanks, Mark
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The 3a transmission and transfer case were the first rebuilds of that type for me...
I think I just got the kits with the seals, bearings, and gaskets...gears were OK..
Still going strong but doesn't get hard use..
I followed these tech tips from the 3a home page....lots of help here too if you need it!
http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/T-90%20Rebuild.htm
http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/Model%2018%20Rebuild.htm
http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/DougHD-18TransfertCase.htm
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Googles
I'm in the same boat as you, not a bad wrench turner, but maybe not so great on diagnosis. My tranny gave me trouble at the FCT, got home took it down and I noticed some issue, but I don't know if they are problems. I just took it to the same guy, the fellow 45 minutes from here that knows manual transmissions well. His job is to do the diagnosis and let me know just what is wrong, then I can decide if I want to do it my self or not. I do plan on adding an over drive while its out.
Some data points - New transmission from Kaiser - $900- $1000 bucks
Re-builts from Herm the overdrive guy are available I think I saw a rebuilt X case for about $500?
Transmission Tower - $150 at fitzpatrick - NOS
As stated, good advice and tech tips here, lots of guys willing to help. Just a matter for me of getting the right diagnosis.
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Been doing some looking, and I think I could get the tc and tranny minor overhaul kits, along with the ring gear for under $400. And I found what seem like some really good instructional videos on YT from metalshaper that seem to be on a level I can understand. Like you, gunslinger, I'm weak on diagnosing, especially if there would be issues greater than what the minor overhaul kits require. Also, I noticed during his videos that metalshaper has some specialized tools that I don't have access to, and I think that may make part of the process rather difficult.
Thanks also for the rebuild thread links. Still debating in my mind on what to do. Wife points out the picture on our fridge that says "Be decisive. Right or wrong, make a decision. The road of life is paved with flat squirrels that couldn't make a decision."
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Well I'm not one to be a Flat Squirrel, I got my diagnosis from the tranny guy and its a major overhaul, with the new parts I'm looking at $1500 bucks if he does it. And like you the money tree has dropped its leaves for the season. I've gotten a lot of encouragement from guys here on the page to do it myself and I guess that may be the direction I'm headed. I've got all winter to get it right. My biggest fear is that I mess something up and have to drop the tranny again to fix it, I really hate that job!
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I watched this video just a couple of days ago. You may find it helpful to get you in the mood!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72fqfC5EXE8
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I watched this guys video's when I rebuilt mine. It was easy. Metalshaper on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ1sa0jNbEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdBD659UQOY
While it's out you might as well do the transfer case too. It's easier than the tranny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l4my1S5kU8&t=3404s
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Well, after 11 months, we’re back at it. Took the transfer case out today, all went smoothly. What I was wondering now is if The transmission and bell housing together is much heavier than the transfer case. Is this something I will need a jack for or can I catch it? Or is it easier to separate the transmission first and then pull off the bell housing? It all needs to be disassembled in the end. What are your thoughts?
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T90 will 134 bellhousing is about same weight as a transfer case with the park brake.
Roughly 75 pounds.
I always leave the bellhousing attached to the T90 and remove those together.
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OK, thanks. If that’s the case I should be able to manage. Is there any trick to getting it off? Or is it as simple as taking out the bolts and sliding it back, with the engine supported, of course?
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No major tricks involved....
The 2 top bolts and especially 2 of the longest side bolts also function as snug fitting dowels.
Gently drive those long side bolts out with a small drift.
Of course you remove the starter and the bell housing front plate stays on behind the flywheel.
Good luck...
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Thanks for all the advice - it's all out on workbench now. Everything is going great. No bad words, blood, or broken fingers. Figured out why it was popping out of high range - detent springs were not correct, and there was an extra ball in one side - go figure. But all the seals were leaking on the tc, and the bearings, while not bad, have enough play to justify an overhaul kit. The intermediate shaft also showed some wear, but nothing severe.
I do need some advice here from you more experienced folks, though.
1. The sliding gear teeth mesh points showed some rounding. At what point do you know when you actually have to replace the gears? I'll try to post a picture later today.
2. Before disassembly, the transmission shifted fine and did not pop out of 2nd. There's no leaks in the front. Should I leave well enough alone?
3. Last year, I had the started bendix replaced, and after a couple months of use, it was making a lot of noise - that's why I parked it until now. Turned out the ring gear was much more worn than I thought, and it sheered the teeth off the new bendix and cracked the nose cone on the starter. Can those nose cones be replaced? or should I just get one of the new hi-torque starters?
4. Along this same line, I was wondering if the gears could have got stripped because the gear teeth on the starter didn't match the ring gear. The existing ring gear has 129 teeth, and the hi-torgue starters are for 124 teeth ring gears. Should I just order a 124 tooth ring gear?
Thanks for reading - suggestions greatly appreciated!
Mark
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Here is a picture of those gears.
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Youtube, a shop manual and Novak's rebuild sheets worked for me. Parts from Novak. I changed gears at that time to change from a T90A to a T90C.
You can do it.
Tom
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- This isn't anyone's rule. It is just where I would probably draw the line. On the 1st/Reverse Slider gear...If a 1/4 of the overall tooth length has been worn away, I would probably replace it. When the damage is not that severe, I've dressed the teeth back to smooth (no burrs or edges) with a file.
- I would not dig very deep into the main-shaft if the transmission wasn't popping out of 2nd. That said, there is no better time to inspect the individual parts for wear. My experience with that symptom was eliminated by replacing the clutch hub assembly, 2nd gear and adding a shim to control main shaft-to-input shaft slop. (It also included the full small parts rebuild kit, But that was on the first trip into the T90.)
- On the starter, I have now gone both ways. I prefer to stay with the authentic stuff, but it doesn't always work out that way. The nose cones can be found by posting at some of the "wanted" sections... here and probably at the 2A and G503 page. I might have one that works, but I'm not sure. The high torque starters are an option and work well, but you do give up some of that "old school" feel, both in look and sound.
-You must make sure your starter bendix teeth count matches the flywheel ring gear.
Keep us in the loop on this. We all enjoy watching stuff come back together. If you want some opinions on what parts look serviceable or are worn out, post some photos as you go.
Thanks for sharing your project!
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I don’t think any of the teeth are close to 1/4 of the way worn. The picture above shows the worst wear anywhere on both the transfer case and transmission. I think my main concern is those inner teeth on the output shaft. I don’t know all my terminology but in the picture, it’s the gear on the left and I think it’s what engages the 4 Wheel Drive.
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For one thing lets get this straight..... your pic shows Dana 18 gears and not Borg Warner T90 gears.
Those gears are probably O.K. but it would help a lot if you can take a closeup pic of the worst.
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Unfortunately, no images for me......
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I got image on post #12.
Showed no image until today....
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I'm a little confused too. I didn't see the photos before, so rambled on thinking we were talking about 1st/Reverse sliding gear in the T90.
The TC gears pictured look good to me.
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Thanks for the advice. I have no idea why the pics didn’t show. I have a rebuild kit on the way from Novak. I did run in to an issue when I was removing the seals. Apparently at some point in the past someone broke part of the seal seat on the output housing, as can be seen in the picture. Thoughts on need of finding a new housing? It was not leaking there before- the e-brake area was nice and dry.
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The seal counter bore on the rear bearing cap ooks perfectly service-able .
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Are the 124 and 129 tooth ring gears interchangeable? I need to replace the ring gear and the starter, and given the 124 tooth ring gears and compatible starters seem to be much more common, should I switch over? Thoughts? My 53 is one of the late production models, and has the L head with the 129 Tooth ring gear.
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Yes you can easily swap between 124 or 129 tooth ring gears so long as you have the appropriate starter bendix.
129 tooth gears are generally a better system because 12 volt starters can be installed.
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Thanks for the info. My starter guy was able to verify the starter model # and it is the one that matches the 129 tooth ring gear. He said the starter is repairable and he should have me going for about $100.
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Just wanted to give a much overdue update on the transfer case rebuild. Everything went great. Watched metalshapers videos and followed directions and it all went together like a charm.Wanted to give a big thank you to all of those who offered suggestions and encouragement. For anybody out there who is hesitant to tackle such a big task, don’t be. It’s not that hard. The only thing I wish I would’ve done different is to go ahead and rebuild the transmission while everything was out. About three or four months after it was all put back together it started jumping out of third. Thanks again!