My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Gearboxes and axles => Topic started by: Ryan_M on July 03, 2016, 06:38:55 PM
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As of today my recently rebuilt T90 started grinding when shifting from 2nd to 3rd. Sometimes it won't engage well and will immediately pop out of third when the clutch is released but will engage smoothly on the next attempt. Double clutching does not help. Once in third, it stays there without issue. All other gear changes are fine.
At the very least I need to pull the tower and have a look.....what am I looking for?
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Shift fork loose on the shift rail?
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Shift forks are tight - that would be too easy, right?
Here's what it looks like inside. Should there be this much slop? If "no", what's missing and what's the fix?
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTmSSRzAzrw&feature=youtu.be[/media]
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Ryan,
I can't view the video. Is it set to "private". Says I have to log in to view.
Tim
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If the shift fork is fine, I'd have a look at the synchro assembly and blocking ring. See how much end float the mainshaft has and if it's pulling away rewards too much. The grinding all of a sudden to me means your blocking ring is going away. Oilly
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Video should now be "public". Sorry about that....
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There shouldn't be any end play in the main shaft. Is the nut tight on the rear?
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There shouldn't be any end play in the main shaft. Is the nut tight on the rear?
This one has an Overdrive so looks like I need to pull that off and see what's going on back there....
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Way too much. The rear main bearing new with no end float has about .005. Shim the spacer, or buy a wider spacer between the rear main bearings and spacer on the main shaft. Take a hard look at the synchro springs that hold the detent bars and also 3rd gear blocking ring. Oilly
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The main shaft had no perceptible end play after the rebuild this spring. Synchro assembly was new. I'm wondering if I lost the snap ring in the OD and that gear assembly has started to loosen? If so, I owe it to my 3rd gear to warn of imminent OD disaster.
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Now that makes sense. You are OD scaring me again. :o
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Now that makes sense. You are OD scaring me again.� :o
No kidding. Me too. Fireworks at Ryan's? Nope, just exploding OD's.
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I pulled the OD off this afternoon to have a look.
Here's what I found with the snap ring. It was was present and accounted for but had popped out of its groove. As soon as I touched it with a screwdriver it and the washer fell right over. Not good.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1949%20Willys%20CJ3A%2031149/20160705_163041_zpsn4wu6jut.jpg)
The bowl gear had loosened considerably but had not come completely undone, hence the mainshaft slop. Talk about playing with fire.
I got on the horn with Advance Adapters and learned a couple things. After I brought the tech up to speed on the past few days' events I asked how I could better prevent a $6 snap ring from wiggling free and destroying an entire Jeep. He told me that the snap ring "batches" vary depending on the composition of the metal alloy used. Some have better spring tension than others and, as a result, some are more prone to coming loose.
Holy cow. Not exactly a comforting statement.
He also informed me that the snap ring design itself was overhauled and beefed up roughly 3 months ago. Since I happen to have another brand new Saturn in the box that arrived last week, here's a few pics that show the difference between the "new" style snap ring and the old one ("old" as in one that came with this OD when I bought it new at the end of 2015). There's no question the new one is heavier and appears better suited to stay in place. That also means it was a real bear to install but I did get it in there.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1949%20Willys%20CJ3A%2031149/20160705_165945_zpswsivozyv.jpg)
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1949%20Willys%20CJ3A%2031149/20160705_170026_zpswmxmqhig.jpg)
And as for getting them seated - I am certain I did it correctly the first time. After I install these snap rings I always use a screw driver to rotate them 360 degrees in both directions so I can verify all corners of it are firmly seated in the groove.
I have struggled in the past to torque the bowl gear to the specified 100-120 ft/lbs and still have the tabbed washer line up but I was able to get it to just over 100 ft/lbs this time. AA tells me anything over 100 is sufficient (but don't go any higher than 125 ft/lbs) while Herm says anything over 75 ft/lbs is good enough.
When I installed the new snap ring today I did discover a bunch of metal shavings in the groove, presumably ground out by the old snap ring making its exit. I don't know what permanent effect this had on the groove and there isn't much I can do now. I cleaned it up and put everything back together.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1949%20Willys%20CJ3A%2031149/new%20slush_zps3jnkgbrr.jpg)
A test drive around the neighborhood shows improved shifts from 2nd to 3rd but there is still a slight crunch. It does not crunch if I double clutch. Obviously I inflicted damage on the 3rd gear blocking ring driving and shifting with all the slop in the main shaft over the weekend. How I made it home at all is nothing short of a miracle. I mentally calculated about 4 different routes to make the 25 mile journey home Sunday and took the one that I knew would require the fewest 2nd-to-3rd gear shifts. I rounded a couple tight turns nearly on two wheels in 3rd gear to keep from having to shift and relied heavily on the OD where I could to compensate. Not sure how much longer I had before the OD completely came apart but I'm very thankful it didn't.
It's ironic as Oilly and I have another thread going about these OD snap rings here ( http://eastcoastwillys.proboards.com/thread/1693/overdrive-failure ) and now it rears its head on this forum under what started out as a completely different topic on an entirely different Jeep.
More testing and research is definitely needed on these snap rings (and/or a better overall solution) I'm just hoping for minimal destruction in the meantime.
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That is a little scary...I suppose Herm uses the same snap rings....I have two of his OD's and both have been in and out several times during the initial installation circus...
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That is a little scary...I suppose Herm uses the same snap rings....I have two of his OD's and both have been in and out several times during the initial installation circus...
The planetary gear assembly in Herm's OD's are supplied by Advance Adapters. My guess is whatever snap ring they use, Herm uses. The last one I got from Herm was prior to the redesign so it was the older style.
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Interesting stuff here. So, if a guy was looking to buy an overdrive, what would be the best one to buy?
Is it enough to just verify it has the new-style snap ring?
Is it true that an overdrive is not to be used in low range?
Oilly, did you ever hear if Jeff's OD that failed was replaced (warranty), or is he just SOL?
Is Herm or Advanced Adaptors standing behind these things?
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Interesting stuff here.� So, if a guy was looking to buy an overdrive, what would be the best one to buy?�
Is it enough to just verify it has the new-style snap ring?�
Is it true that an overdrive is not to be used in low range?
Oilly, did you ever hear if Jeff's OD that failed was replaced (warranty), or is he just SOL?
Is Herm or Advanced Adaptors standing behind these things?
I would, without question, go with Advanced if I were to buy another one. I will not buy from Herm again. Opinions vary but my experience with him has not been good.
I use mine a lot in 4Lo which allegedly causes more wear but I don't believe that has anything to do with the recent issues I've had - snap ring or otherwise.
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I agree with Ryan.
Too many bad experiences with Herm.
I bought two overdrives from him, one that went back for replacement, and a set of transfer case gears that arrived chipped because of poor packing.
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Advance Adaptors bought all the old Warn tooling and rights to make the Saturn of today. They also have a very expensive gear CNC machine for making new gears. I talked with a pleasant fellow who has been with them from the get go. He advised me to not use it 4 wheeling and said it causes pre-mature wear. I think if you are shifting it normally and not rock crawling and jamming gears, it would be fine. I'm very disappointed with those snap rings that have the holes in the ends. Do not use them!!!!!! send it back for the newer , larger one. Walcks, Kaiser Willys, and Advanced adaptors all sell the Saturn. Buy a new one and torque it on correctly, have as little mainshaft endfloat in your tranny as possible, and keep it extremely clean and full of oil. I'm pretty sure Jeff will not get much help with his. They get off the hook when you install it and not them. Herm is overconfident and that's all I'm saying. If you have a planetary re-built. Install the large snap ring over the ends of the roller pins. They can and do work out and bang! bad things happen. If you find a used one, you most likely will end up with the same, or more $ than a new one in it. Like trannys, any wear, replace it. The safety fluted snap ring-----is a gamble at best. I'm paranoid about it. Don't like the design. Oilly
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Ryan, in your posted photo of the loose snap ring, I see the larger snap ring that holds the rollers-----good. But, on my warn, the roller bearing and caged needles stay with the inner shaft and slide out of the planetary. Did yours get metal lodged in between???? :D
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Ryan, in your posted photo of the loose snap ring, I see the larger snap ring that holds the rollers-----good. But, on my warn, the roller bearing and caged needles stay with the inner shaft and slide out of the planetary. Did yours get metal lodged in between???? :D
I really have no idea. I'm ruling out nothing at this point.
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The metal in there will spin out centrifugally and lodge inside the planetary . You should pull the torqued on assembly and wash it out. Mine had chunks in it. If they get between the gears, they can ---------well, ------------ :D
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Where did the chunks of metal in yours come from?
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I bought mine used and the thrust washer below the funky lock tab and snap ring was in 3 pieces. "Herm" fixed it. No one washed it though. lots of bad stuff in there but all is well now. I washed it. The metal in your picture really bothered me next to the crappy snap ring. That's why I wondered if it got between the outside of the needle bearing cage and the machined hole it fits into. Oilly
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Not that any metal is good but it looks "chunkier" in the pic than it really was. It was more like the consistency of brass flakes we've all seen in transmission oil - just a heavier mix. Rub it between your fingers and I doubt you could tell anything was even there.�
I did scrape/scoop as much out as I could but I did not pull the unit and wash it. Now I'm thinking I should have.
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Steel chunks get smashed into the bearing races, while brass and softer stuff ends up at the drain plug. All that crap shortens the life of your nice build. Your message that the brand new snap ring has come out did little to console my feelings. I was thinking of another OD myself, but now am hesitant. They need to make one better that will fit through the planetarys, and have more contact with the snap ring groove. A new improved snap ring. I proved to myself you can't get the right sized round internal on in there without damaging the new snap ring.
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I mentioned over at East Coast Willys that advance Adaptors needs to come up with a new snap ring that engauges more of the snap ring groove, but still fits through the planetary gears. Even the new upgraded one or "batch" has failed. In working on various applications, I've run into wire type retainers. What do you guys think of installing this type in there? I think you could work the wire one in there without overstressing it. It would need a bent inwards end on it to grab. ?????????? Oilly
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I was wondering to about different retainer rings.� How about one of these flat coiled ones.� Do you think it could be worked in there?
(http://www.smalley.com/sites/default/files/Spirolox%20Internal%202%20Turn%20Retaining%20Ring.jpg)
Being a full ring though might prove difficult getting it thru the planetary gears.� I do think you should try the wire type and report back ;)
They make flat wire retainers to that would fit in the groove.
(http://www.smalley.com/sites/default/files/Special%20Inward%20Bent%20Ends.jpg)
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The coiled one would be harder than a standard type internal snapring , which I failed with. The squared one looks great, but most likely would get bent getting it in there and then would not fit the groove. A round wire type would probably go in there, but would it stay in a square groove and will it be big enough to hold the lock tab in place? All is unknown. Joe Friday says he blue lock tights the threads and torques to spec. I didn't think of doing that.
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Joe Friday says he blue lock tights the threads and torques to spec. I didn't think of doing that.
Duh...great idea that never crossed my mind either. At the very least it'd buy a little extra insurance. When I spoke with AA last week the tech implied that even with snap ring failure if torqued to 120 ft/lbs it shouldn't back out anyways. I doubted that statement but if LockTite is used I'd feel a lot better about it.
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Loc-tite for sure.
I wouldn't do this but I suppose one could go to extremes and JB weld that star lock ring in its place. JB weld is tough but its not permanent. Not a a lot of room in that place to try to break it out if needed though. Poor route to have to take when you should just be able to slap it in there as designed.
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Well I made it most of the season on what was clearly a damaged 2nd gear assembly due to the OD backing itself out and me limping it home that day. Second gear finally locked up and I had to pull the trans.
Here's what a NOS synchro looks like when you drive 25 miles with a loose OD. I installed this new when I rebuilt the trans less than 1 year ago. Trans had to come again out for yet another a new NOS synchro assembly. Swapped the clutch disc while I was in there (prematurely worn due to an ill-fated effort to try and drag a CJ5A up a rocky incline on some god-forsaken trail in PA� ;D ) and realized after I got it back together that the clutch disc was wrong. Not sure if it was vendor error or just a crappy part. Definitely my bad for not inspecting it closer prior to install. Had to go back in after it. Good to know I can swap a 3A clutch in 3-1/2 hours now. Dropping the same trans 4 or 5 times in the same year will make one pretty good at it...
Roasted:
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Boy...that took a real beating.
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Toast for sure....and now I'm paranoid of my OD failing or coming loose..
Are you going to put the OD back in?
Mine transmission still shifts nice and crisp so if it starts to act up I'll know where to look....
Randy
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Are you going to put the OD back in?
It is not back in at this time. I'm prepping the 3A for winter plow duty and the OD is not needed for that. Last thing I want is for another crippling OD problem when I actually need this Jeep for snow removal duty.
I will put it back in at some point before spring, with Locktite this time. As maddening (and expensive) as the failures have been I still say the luxury of an OD is worth it.
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You must be the house expert on OD's by now...
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You must be the house expert on OD's by now...
Nope, that would be Oilleaker by a very wide margin.
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During this Herm/Saturn/OD/SnapRing fiasco last year I bought and brandy new Saturn and it's been sitting on the shelf since then. I opened it up last weekend to install it on my red 3A (The red 3A in this thread that suffered snap ring failure followed by another OD coming dislodged and destroying 2nd gear on a freshly rebuilt T90. The T90 has since been rebuilt yet again).
This time the new OD installed without a problem but would not shift into direct drive. The shifter slid hard in any direction and felt like it was hitting a wall trying to go into direct - it just wouldn't go. Close inspection showed no contact with the shift linkage anywhere so that was ruled out. I've never felt resistance like that shifting an OD and never had it stop dead when trying to engage direct. Odd.
I called Advanced (they are always awesome and helpful, btw) and the tech immediately knew what the problem was. He described a "perfect storm" last year of the cases coming in at max thickness tolerance along with the shifter slider ring also being at max tolerance. Combined, there isn't enough clearance between the two and the ring rubs on the inner part of the case. Not good. He gave me the option of disassembling it myself in order to access the inner part of the case to grind down the high spot or send it back so they could do it. I opted for the latter.
If the OD's didn't make such a huge positive difference in the drivability of these old rigs I'd run screaming from them and never come back. The fact that I keep tinkering with them shows how spectacular OD's really are....when they work.
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Ryan, is Advanced being proactive about this on any new OD's that it sends out now? Are they correcting the "perfect storm" defects before sending them out to consumers? I would like to buy an OD but not if all these issues haven't been taken care of.
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Ryan, is Advanced being proactive about this on any new OD's that it sends out now?� Are they correcting the "perfect storm" defects before sending them out to consumers?� I would like to buy an OD but not if all these issues haven't been taken care of.
From what I was told this appears to be an isolated problem from a batch last year. I don't know this for certain though. If you are going to buy one I would suggest asking AA about it before purchasing to make sure you don't end up getting one of these problematic units.
I am also hoping they have adjusted the manufacturing tolerances since then to ensure no more are made this way. Again, only hoping. I have no idea what really takes place there.