My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Gearboxes and axles => Topic started by: athawk11 on March 27, 2015, 05:36:32 PM
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My OD Willys was due for a little service.� Since the beginning, it has leaked.� This is my primary reason for rolling and running the chassis on my current project.� It�s much easier to address issues, like leaks,� prior to installing a tub.
When I first did this rebuild, I didn't mess with the tranny.� It had been rebuilt by the PO.� I cleaned it, painted it, put on new gaskets, then stuck it all back together.� Done.� Cool.� Easy Breezy.
Guess what looks to be the primary leak point.� That's right...Rookie mistake.� Oil appears to be draining from the two Allen head screws that hold the oil collector in place.� I'm pretty sure I didn't pull these during the first go around.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/f20958e2e3f5e32cc9833bff75e34e9d_zpsoe6rnjbo.jpg)
This box was drained...and I'm still seeing fluid drain from this hole.
Bear cap was pulled. The gasket was a little moist, but appears to have done its job.
Bearing pulled...�
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/c467d5fafb857f76cb440adb1785d521_zpsockm1m08.jpg)
Here is the sealed bearing.� Note the drain hole has been plugged.� All threaded passages were thoroughly cleaned...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/bb8094cb2e9f37edfeae1886f8d6e483_zpsvmate9tq.jpg)
And finally, the new sealed bearing installed in the tranny case.� I used a thin coat of Permatex 2 around the bearing edge...
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/4b6f40003127c796299ccda674fcb682_zpsfzvntcrl.jpg)
After inspection, the components that wear out do look pretty good.� The leading edge of 1st/slider gear is a little chewed, but not bad enough to tear it all down.
So, regardless if you choose to use a sealed bearing or the standard bearing on the front of� your T-90, do yourself a favor and pull these oil collector screws and make sure you clean and seal them.
Tim
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[movedhere] Chassis, brakes and suspension. [move by] Quebec Jeep.
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Looks like your becoming a seasoned pro.� If there a 'remove a T90 tranny' competition, I think I'd have to enter : :-[
Did you leave both inner and outer bearing seals in place?� That's my current setup.� We're there any small seals on those 5 Allen head screws?� I think you could get by without them with some good cleaning and a proper sealant treatment.
I also sealed the bearing inner and outer races. What I also did was seal the face of the tranny where there were any thru holes to the tranny before mating it to the bellhouse. I know some use a gasket there but again a good sealant job will suffice.
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Looks good Tim. I think I will go the sealed bearing route next time around. I have at least one, possibly more, leaks on my 3A tranny. Not exactly sure where they originate but I'll probably wait until I absolutely have to remove the thing for some other reason.
Bretto, didn't you pull yours about 12 times before finally getting things squared away? That's what I fear I'd end up doing.
I believe my rear main seal needs replacing too so I might as well throw that one the list for the next "Big Overhaul".
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Probably close to that. ;D
Enough that if I have to do it, it's not a dreadful pondering drawn out thing anymore. Of course the M38 removable tub floor helps out a ton.
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....a dreadful pondering drawn out thing
A dead-on accurate description of so many of these Willys projects ;D ;D
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Bretto and Ryan will have an unfair advantage in all T-90 removal contests. For all the new folks here...Do not challenge them! ;)
I have left the inside and outside seals in place. Both for this and the other project.
There were copper crush washers on the oil collector screws, but they were crushed beyond recognition. No crush washers on the three screws that hold the bearing retainer in place, but I'm adding them. I'm using the nylon stuff they give you in the gasket kits. Don't know if they belong here, but they seem to fit right.
Tim
Tim
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Bretto and Ryan will have an unfair advantage in all T-90 removal contests. For all the new folks here...Do not challenge them! ;-)
Yes but in this case we're on a level playing field. The Willys with the leaking tranny is the one without the removable floor.... :-/
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Yes but in this case we're on a level playing field. The Willys with the leaking tranny is the one without the removable floor.... :-/
Then I feel for you my friend. This isn't overly difficult, but is a lot of work...while laying on your back. :(
Tim
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Just for fun I went up in the attic and looked at my leftover and spare gasket collection....
Sure enough there is a nice little package of five sealing washers...no doubt for the collector screws and front bearing retainer screws...
But I'm sure I gooped them up pretty good with Permatex #2 when I put it together...I use a lot of #2....
No abnormal leaks anyway..so far.....
I definitely suffer from "dreadful pondering" when it comes to transmission/TC removal.....
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Can anyone who reads this thread tell me if you can see Tim's photos above? All I have is a "click for photos" symbol where the photos used to be.
Tim if you read this, what do I need in order to see these photos? I've never had this problem before with any of the photos on the 3A page, and am wondering if there is something I'm missing or a problem with my latest download of Firefox...
Thanks a lot!
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Tom, it's not you.
I put some effort into re-categorizing some of my misplaced Photobucket pictures. When I did this, I broke the original link. I'll see if I can put them back.
Tim
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Hi Tim, don't knock yourself out on my account. Probably no surprise that I was interested in this topic as after the FCT I now have a leak between the transmission and the bell housing. Gear oil is running down the seam and appears to be coming from the top. I'm guessing I jarred it when I hit the skid plate on a rock crawling up Hancock Pass (or maybe it was Cumberland).
Don't forget I have the M38 tub so have full access from above, however, as this is all new to me (tranny stuff) I am wondering what might be the issue and just how, exactly, I ought to proceed with repairs. I intend to pull the floor covers off to see what I can see, but thought I'd better get an idea of what I am getting into. Do you suppose it is just loose bolts? Gasket or seal? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Tom in order to fix a leak at front end of the tranny you will have to pull the box.
Who knows, you might just have a leaky tower to tranny leak, cross your fingers!
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Thanks Brett. I may have found the culprit...this small plug was laying on the top of the tranny and came out of the right forward "hole". What is this called, why is it there, and should I permatex it in so it doesn't come out again or is it some kind of a "relief measure" designed into the T-90?
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Sweet, easy fix. Its just a plug so if you wanted to take out the shift rail. Clean it up and seal it back in. Sometimes oil can seep past the shift rail into that void and cause hydraulic pressure, pressing those out when shifting. Or is could of just came out. Some have put a groove in the shift rail to allow the oil to drain back. On a M38 shift tower, those holes are are tapped and plugged with pipe fitting plugs.
Nice that its a simple trouble.
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Thanks Brett. I'll just seal this plug back in there and should be good to go. If that doesn't fix the leak, I'll be back! Appreciate the input from you and Tim.
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Tom,
I am in the process of fixing my leaks as well from FCT and my cap popped off as well. It was just laying on top of the transmission when I pulled the access cover off. I still need to pull the transfer case and transmission to find the cause of my horrible seal leaks. Is that Sparkey in the picture? Really a neat dog and his taste in cheese is superb! ;D
Really liked your Jeep........
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Thanks George. One thing is certain with dogs - you can always count on them to embarrass the heck out of you at some point. Sparky does know a good Gouda when he smells one! It occurred to me after the fact I should have had him bring it to me instead of saying "drop it"...which he did right into the dirt! Well, maybe the extra dirt killed some of the "dog germs"!
I dodged a bullit on the tc leak. Sealing the plug back into the shift rail hole did the trick and no more drip. Sounds like you have some other things going on with yours. Good luck with the repair. Hope to see you again!
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Man Tom!...I wish this were my issue! You lucky dog.
Glad it was minor.
Tim
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Tom, you crack me up - I'm a dog lover so I know how it goes. I really got some great story time in about Sparky. That was part of what made my first trip to FCT so grand. I hope that we can meet up again on a trail - You Colorado guys are lucky - so many wonderful mountain trails to ride and such great scenery.
Next time I'm bringing limburger! ;D
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Tom,
I Is that Sparkey in the picture? Really a neat dog and his taste in cheese is superb!� ;D
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Thanks Sparky does know a good Gouda when he smells one!�
For those of you not fortunate to have bore witness to this I can say the looks on both George and Tom's faces were priceless and Good 'ol Sparky thought he'd found the mother lode. We'll certainly all meet up again this spring-how's south Dakota sound??
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Next time I'm bringing limburger! ;D
Well, you should know that with Sparky, the stinkier the better! You might end up with him as your co-pilot for the duration.
We'll certainly all meet up again this spring-how's south Dakota sound??
Sounds good to me, Rick! I would guess that Mr. Leaker is hatching a plan as we speak. George, you should think about making the Black Hills Run if you can.
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Hey Rick
Funny you should mention SD. I have been looking at the pictures from June and it looks like a completely different trail system. I'm going to have to make some plans but I can assure you I'll have my own trailer this time. Uhaul should have given me a credit for being a poster boy for them this year!
Good to hear from you.
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Leaker here. Yes friends I'm making plans and even found a new short cut over to Boulder Canyon from my place. You'll love it. I've enjoyed all your company and of course the pups too! Advance notice: June 20-25, 2016 is Mon. - Fri. Weekends before and after are optional. I'll be here.! Oilly
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John, I would really like to do this so I am putting it on my calender. At least this way I can try and schedule the time off!
Hey Rick, I'll send you a picture tonight of a brand new item I just purchased!!!!!!!!!!
I'll give you a hint: I hope that I never have to use it again while laying under a jeep at 08:00 ::)
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Okay sticking to the subject, my trans leak is coming from the darn bottom oil collector screw! I thought that I had sealed it but I guess not, what a PIA. Rookie mistake as Tim called it. Now my xfer case leaks are another matter. I used the modified seals National 473229 double lip, and I don�t know if this was the problem or if I was getting leaking through the splines. I had mineral oil all over the place. I called a 4 wheel drive shop locally and explained my problem and he said sometimes they run 2 seals to solve the leaking issue. All this depends on the condition of the yokes. Mine are all new so I don�t believe the problem is the seal surface or diameter. Either way I polished the yokes up with 600 grit paper and got a good smooth surface.
I know this is a question answered before but is RTV a good fix for the spline leakage issue?
I�m going to try and find some crush washers for the oil collector screws as well as #2 Permatex.
I pulled the trans/xfer case this weekend and boy what a PIA with the tub on. I�m going down to pick up a trans jack this week. I started with pulling the xfer case and not too much trouble. Then I removed the trans and had a heck of a time getting to the throwout bearing spring and fork. Any suggestions on assembly guys (with the tub on of course)? Is it easier to do 1 at a time or both trans and xfer case. I can see where it will be difficult to get the fork and spring back in position with assembled pieces.
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Hi George,
Sadly, I've become quite an expert removing and installing the drive train with the tub in position.
I've removed each part and reinstalled. I've removed the bell, transmission, and transfer case fully assembled. Both approaches have obvious advantages and disadvantages.
I finally spent the money on a Harbor Freight tranny Jack. This made the full assembly approach much easier to manage when working by myself.
Weight wise, it's fairly easy when installing each case separately, but the fork and bearing spring are tricky. I used long needle nose pliers for the bearing spring. I used this technique to install the fork.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/Clutch%20Fork%20Trick_zpsb6hcuvuu.jpg) (http://s1195.photobucket.com/user/athawk11/media/Clutch%20Fork%20Trick_zpsb6hcuvuu.jpg.html)
Works like a charm. Leave the twisted wires long. Push bearing forward. Slip fork in to position. Then untwist the wires and pull them out.
For the splines...use a generous amount of Permatex 2. Let it set up for a day or two before driving.
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I would add... Clutch cable. Have it in the bell housing and shoved all the way forward. Once the fork is in position, get underneath and pull the cable in to the fork notch. I got lucky. It slipped right in. If not so lucky, you might have to guide the cable from above (with a couple fingers) while a helper slowly pulls the cable backwards.
Tim
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Okay Rick - here it is!
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Tim,
Thanks for the information. I like to call the helpful information "old Indian tricks"
It is so neat to see what people have come up with to make things easier and make things work. Another good example good old yankee ingenuity!
Now to give your fork installation a name so we can reference this on future posts!
How about the hawk-o-matic - this should go on the member created parts!
I'll let you know how it works next week. I'm getting a gasket kit from Walks to finish up the trans/xfer case.
Thanks again amigo..................
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John, I would really like to do this so I am putting it on my calender. At least this way I can try and schedule the time off!
Hey Rick, I'll send you a picture tonight of a brand new item I just purchased!!!!!!!!!!
I'll give you a hint: I hope that I never have to use it again while laying under a jeep at 08:00� ::)
The fluid pump is a "must have". Good purchase! Yep ya find out who your real friends are when layin under a jeep at 8pm don't ya George ;)
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Well, I've done all that you guys are doing, and the jury is still out as to the easiest way to do the removal of the transmission. The fork removal and install are the factor that makes me still wonder. I'm lucky with the fact I can borrow and real professional tranny jack and I have a car hoist to stand under the Jeep while doing it. That stupid fork is always the problem. One tip is to make sure the fork's slot allows the cable to slide through the slit. I almost didn't get the cable back into mine. I had a helper hold the cable while my hand forced it through. The little spring on the throwout bearing carrier is also a religious experience. The rest isn't bad. I've been wondering about taking the bell housing next time. Then assemble it all first, or just pull the engine and transmission as a unit . I'm sure you would have to tip the engine down to get the input shaft through the clutch and pilot bushing which might also be tough. I'll probably go back to the hand in the bell routine. My GPW is next. The t84 is lighter and smaller. Best part is the pain goes away after a while. ;D
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Oilly, I think I'm going to go for the transmission jack that Tim mentioned. This was a real PIA to handle by myself. I will need it again for my wagon once I am done on the CJ.
I'll let you know how the hawk-o-matic works out. Now I just need a spring-o-matic - I can see where this is going to test my patience!
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I like Hawk-o-matic...
...but I feel I must offer full disclosure. I stole the idea from a guy at the G503. ::)
Tim
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Great thread everyone. I too am in the "fixing leak mode." Ordered a tranny gasket set from Supplier K, waited a week, and it came in without the 5 washers for the allen screws. Called them up and found out the washers were in the picture in the catalog BUT no longer in the set -@#@? Called up Supplier W - yep, they are in the set. Waited another week and the gaskets arrived with only 4 nylon washers. So I am making the rounds of hardware stores looking for 1 tiny little washer. Now I am also looking for the neat little caps for the shift rail holes. Never considered tapping them for a pipe plug - thanks for the idea.
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That little cap has very thin sidewalls. Before you go for the plug idea, check to be sure the selector rod won't hit the end of the threaded plug. I know M38's had the plugs, but they also had a removeable cane and may be different from a standard CJ shifter assembly. John
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This thread is very informative- I have a little drip on my trans that someday I will take care of. Seeing other peoples projects takes you way beyond the shop manual!
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It certainly does and a lot of good information that would fill volumes in any repair manual. I just love the repair manuals - do the assembly in reverse order of disassembly!
Modern technology has solved that issue of working on your own vehicle. My wifes BMW doesn't even have a dip stick and there is only 6" of ground clearance. If I jack it up to change oil the alarm goes off - it thinks someone is steeling the tires!
Oh yea and I don't have a suction machine for the oil tube.
Thank goodness for old Jeeps...............even if they do leak!
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Hey Tim,
Regarding the transmission jack - did you get the adjustable model at Harbor Freight? This would be the side to side and front to back adjustment. I think it goes for $149.00.
Sine I have no friends to help with installation I'm a 1 man show as well.
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Upon inspection of my shifter rails on the transfer case I noticed I was leaking out of the seals as well. I think that I may have damaged the lip during installation the first time, so I polished up the rails and put 2 seals in each rail. I will let you know how it works out. On 1 side the seal extends .030 and on the other it extends .040. I don't believe that they will pop out and I did put a little sealer on them as well.
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I like it!
Tim
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All this good information from different locations. It is better because I have met most every one commenting.
I know I will be under Eeyore as he is marking his territory. This information will really help. Thanks
Tom
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Tonight I will fill the transmission and transfer case with GL1. I will keep my fingers crossed regarding any drips.
On a side note, I purchased the scissor type trans. jack ($99.00 Harbor Freight) and although it does slide under the Jeep with the transmission or transfer case attached I did have to do some adjusting by hand and shimming to get it aligned enough to locate the bolt holes. Another problem is that the 1/2" ratchet screw to raise and lower was a real PIA when you have a load on the jack. This jack is rated for 400+ lbs and I can see where this would be a real problem to lift with that much weight. I believe that Tim purchased the hydraulic jack that has adjustments side to side and front to back. I may see if HF will take mine back, but if not I am okay with what I have. I did like that you can make fine adjustment up or down with the screw type once you are in close position for installation. The strap that comes with the jack is diificult to release once you have the tran/Xfer case in position as well.
I put the transmission in first and then the transfer case. Next time I will try it with both in place. My 53 wagon is next on the list!
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George, Thx for the review on the trans jack.
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Hello my fellow transmission/transfer case brethren. Just to give you an update from my attempts to fix Drippy, I mean Smokey!
Well, I have put about 150 miles on the seal repairs and I noticed that I have a leak from the bell housing (again) about the size of a quarter. It is mineral oil so I know where it is coming from. It really pains me since I put so much effort into sealing and being really careful on the assembly. I am thinking that the felt seal is the problem but until I get a big pool under the Jeep I will live with the quarter size spot. I am going to really research the front bearing cover and seal options on my wagon transmission repair. No leaks from the front or rear yokes or the shift rails. If you look back on this post you will see where I put double seals on the shift rails. I did not include the pictures of the double seals for the yokes but I will make a posting of this on my next repair. I'm sure that most folks just use 1 seal and never have a problem but I'm not taking any chances. I don't want to be under the Jeep at 8:00 at the TDR refilling the cases! I'd rather be drinking a good cold beer with the rest of the group!
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You can always get a sealed front T90 bearing ;)
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http://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/transmission-leaking-oil-from-the-bellhousing_topic33907.html?KW=Bearing
Here is another post.....since I took the bearing back out and put the inside seal back in so both sides of the bearing are sealed.
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/3Ayabb26/YaBB.pl?num=1352339956/0