My Willys 3A and 3B Community
TECH FAQ SECTIONS => Chassis, brakes and suspension. => Topic started by: Gunslinger on February 06, 2018, 09:06:17 AM
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Gents,
Looking for some advice from the "A Team" here. I've got a set of factory brakes on my 50 3A, I have nev er been happy with them. They seem to require continual adjustment and service, the brake pedal is hard to push and it just seems that they are much less effective than they should be.
I've got two roads to go down here, I can tear the brakes a part and do a complete factory re-build, my fear is that I will end up with what I have now, or I can do an upgrade, what do you guys suggest? Does anyone have a good upgrade that is relatively easy to install? What are your thougths, looking for suggestions.
Gun
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I'm currently restoring a 1950 CJ3A and I have decided to go with 11" brakes all around. The stock 16" wheels fit over these brakes. I'm using 1972 CJ5 brake parts. The other option was disc brakes from a GEO Tracker. i bought the bolt on brackets to hold the calipers and the rest of the parts are stock Tracker. The reason for not going this way was that the stock 16" wheels do not fit over the caliper.
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With 11" brakes it will stop on a dime and there is very little modification that needs to be done to make them fit.
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I have the 11" brakes also and am very happy with them. Be advised that the primary shoe is in the opposite position as with the 9" brakes. I am forgetting which is which, but I believe the primary shoe goes in the rear position whereas it is in the front position on the 9" brakes. But don't take my word for it! :-?
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Several years ago I got an 11" kit from Mile High Jeep in Denver for our CJ5. They stop the Jeep with authority. I am very happy with this up grade and I am planing on putting the 11" brakes on my 52 M-38.
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Thanks guys, couple questions, the 9 and 11 inch brakes mentioned here, are these the size of the brake shoe using the original drums, and master/ wheel cylinders or are we talking about a set of disc brakes with external calipers and discs? Additional Qusetion, Mile High Jeep in Denver, do they have a web site? I looked for them and they didn't come up in a google search. Thanks Gun
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Drum brakes are measured by the inside diameter of the brake drum. 9" is stock for an early CJ. In the '70s CJs went to self adjusting 11" drum brakes. This is what most 11" conversion parts are based on. Early Wagons and Trucks also used 11" brakes but they are less desirable.
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Gun,
Sadly, Mile High Jeep is long gone.
Tim
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I'm in the middle of planning and sourcing parts to upgrade to discs all around. There is some great info for it here https://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=236383
Depending on where you can get the parts, right know i'm looking at around 450-600 dollar for all the parts as good as new or new included having the brackets made.
The good thing about this upgrade is you do not need to grind anything off the knuckles, no extra drilling welding anywhere, simple bolt on upgrade so you can always go back easily if ever originality becomes a priority.
The way i look at it personally is the extra safety this provides in stopping power does not justify sticking to originality and drumbrakes if you participate in modern traffic on a regular basis. Not only for you and your Jeep but others also.
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Guys, I found this guy, just doing some research but it sounds promising, no cutting welding or drilling. Keep you posted.
Gun
From: Partsdude4x4 <partsdude4x4@hughes.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:21:22 AM
To: 'Todd and Sue Gabrielson'
Subject: RE: Brake conversion- upgrade kit for CJ3a
$695.00, most of the parts are 1978-81 CJ parts
-Don
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Suzuki GEO Tracker Disc Brakes Easy disc brakes. Bolt on, no cutting or grinding. All the parts are at any auto parts store. Get the mounting brackets here:
https://www.facebook.com/brennan.metcalf.37/posts/762109110580994
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Guys, I found this guy, just doing some research but it sounds promising, no cutting welding or drilling.� Keep you posted.
Gun
From: Partsdude4x4 <partsdude4x4@hughes.net>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:21:22 AM
To: 'Todd and Sue Gabrielson'
Subject: RE: Brake conversion- upgrade kit for CJ3a
$695.00, most of the parts are 1978-81 CJ parts
-Don
The only problem with using those parts is that you have to grind down the knuckle. Very similar to this upgrade:
http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/154-0704-early-jeep-disk-brake-conversion/
Personally the last thing i want to do is having to grind down the knuckle to make it fit, and a pretty fair bit to if you ask me. Going the Suzuki Geotracker part way does not require any grinding and makes this imho the best upgrade with respect to your Jeep. Anything that requires to cut into original parts that cannot be undone ever is a no go imho.
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Here's the product description from the web site, curious as to what you guys think.
Gun
Product Description
Disc brake kit for Dana 25/27 closed knuckles axles. This kit is designed to work with 15" stock Jeep rims that came with drum brakes and requires no grinding to the knuckle.
Wear parts in this kit are over the counter parts that can be purchased at any auto parts store. Part numbers for these parts will be included in the kit as well as the vehicles that use these parts. Kit designed to work on all stock 15" Jeep rims. No grinding necessary to the knuckles with this kit. Kit includes detailed mounting instructions, 2 preassembled 7/8" rotors, wheel hubs and wheel studs, 4 Timken bearings, 2 seals, 4 bearing cups, 2 1/4" aluminum wheel spacers, 2 standard rubber brake lines, 2 caliper mounting brackets, 2 loaded calipers with pads and hanger brackets, 10 wheel lug nuts, 2 wheel spindle nut kits, 2 banjo bolts, all the mounting hardware needed to install this kit.
Warranty Information
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Disc brake kit 5 Star Review
Posted by Darin on 11th Jan 2017
Fantastic kit. Wish I would have done this a long time ago. Easy and simple to install. Everything bolts right on. I spent maybe three and a half hours, taking my time to install the kit. I had driven it is snow and rain with no more pulling from one side to the other with lots of stopping power. Thanks Don!!!!!!!!!!
Can't wait to buy more of your products.
disc brake upgrade 5 Star Review
Posted by Darin on 1st Jan 2017
Fantastic kit! Everything bolts right on, simple and easy. Spent a few hours Sunday afternoon, and what a difference. Wish I would have done this years ago.
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They mention only 15" wheels. Do you think they are saying it won't work with 16" wheels? Why would that be???
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They mention only 15" wheels.� Do you think they are saying it won't work with 16" wheels?� Why would that be???
That seems to be a consistent message on these brake conversions, I looked at Herms site yesterday and was pretty excited about his options. He offers an 11 inch drum brake kit for all 4 wheels that includes a dual reservoir master cylinder for about 800 bucks. But there is a warning that "some original 15 and 16 inch wheels may not fit on the drums". I think I'm going to call them and get more info before I dive in. I would hate to be surprised by needing a wheel purchase.
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I spoke with Herm, he has a bolt in 11 drum brake conversion that is pretty reasonably priced, however he cautions that some 15 and 16 inch OE wheels will not work. I sent him a picture of mine, the reason for the caution is that the wheel has to be flat across the entire inside face, if it has the raised re-enforcing ring the 11 drums will not sit flat on the drum.
I really did not want to have to buy all new wheels for this project in addition to the brakes.
Hmm, more pondering.
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Suzuki GEO Tracker Disc Brakes Easy disc brakes. Bolt on, no cutting or grinding. All the parts are at any auto parts store. Get the mounting brackets here:
https://www.facebook.com/brennan.metcalf.37/posts/762109110580994
Mtnman.
Will standard 16 inch OE wheels fit on this conversion?
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From what I understand Combat wheels will not fit. For 16" civilian wheels some say you'll need a 1/4" wheel spacer but not always? Go to that link and ask Brennan Metcalf the maker of the mounts. When I found these it was too late for me. I had already assembled all the parts for 11" all around with all new parts. My next build will have these disc on all four.
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R & P 4WD Parts, Inc. does a good disc conversion kit for all 4 using GM products. R & P is out of Oregon City, OR.
Horsepower Sales LLC does the front axle, but I'm not sure about the rear axle. Here's some pics on my conversion. You can find both companies on eBay.
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And the rear...
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Hi Guys,
I did finally complete that disc brake conversion, I used the Geo Tracker package that MTMan suggested. I gotta say that was slick. I worked with Brennan Metcalf out of Durango, I bought the backing plates from him and he gave me the list of donor vehicles and a lot of good install information, good guy to work with. I used the Geo Tracker disc, caliper and shoes, and the lines are from a GMC pickup. I'll semd Brennan a note and ask him for permission to share the details with everyone on the forum. I have pics of the step by step, part numbers from NAPA and Fastenal, and Brennans directions. Nice thing was it was only about $250.00 for all the parts for the front axle.
Keep you posted/
Gun
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They mention only 15" wheels.� Do you think they are saying it won't work with 16" wheels?� Why would that be???
That seems to be a consistent message on these brake conversions, I looked at Herms site yesterday and was pretty excited about his options.� He offers an 11 inch drum brake kit for all 4 wheels that includes a dual reservoir master cylinder for about 800 bucks.� But there is a warning that "some original 15 and 16 inch wheels may not fit on the drums".� I think I'm going to call them and get more info before I dive in.� I would hate to be surprised by needing a wheel purchase.
Well, i had a bit of a set back in plans, i now need to first rebuild the T90 before i do the discbrake conversion. I picked up all the Geotracker parts and only need the brakeline hoses made and the brackets, i even picked up an extra front axle to testfit everything.
I have the 16 inch rims and hope to know the answer by the end of may/june.
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I have 16 inch wheels on mine and I believe them to be the original OE wheels, they fit up with no problems on the Tracker conversion.
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with the disc brake conversion, what about the master cyl. can you still use the original or do you need an updated one,
thanks
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I used the same one that I had, have not had an issue with it. I do think its a wise upgrade to use a dual cylinder master, but I've not done that yet and have had no problems.
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I'm in the same boat as many of you. I want to upgrade my brakes, because I find the original 9" drums just aren't cutting it in the city combined with blowing out one of my wheel cylinders this weekend. The 11" drum conversion seems pretty straightforward but the parts seem to be a bit pricier than going the Geo disk route.
Unfortunately I have 15" steel wheels for now which only complicates things since I didn't want to switch to new wheels and tires just yet.
Does anyone know if the Geo disk conversion will fit under later style 15" CJ wheels?
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/C32F86A8-0B3A-4B8D-89AA-8DBA6E971391.jpg)
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You might ask Brennan Metcalf, he has the most experience with these, you can find his store on fBook.
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The GEO Tracker has 15" wheels.
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Well there you go !! I did not know that!
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I've had a bunch of trackers. Good little 4x4, third world tough.
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Well after trying three different styles of factory wheels. I managed to find out which ones fit and which ones don't fit.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/2618BC19-2765-448B-A7E3-94743793CAC2.jpg)
These are 16" factory wheels with riveted centers. They have a flat flange on the lug nut area. They WILL work.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/56624A71-2F67-472F-B055-FF73DEDE8AA8.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/DD3ADFDA-49CA-438E-8B90-0FECB1969AC6.jpg)
These are 16" wheels with riveted centers. They have a step on the spokes. These WILL work.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/0E8C0F4B-FE84-4717-9AE3-7F998C37F600.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/BFE8733A-A651-42CA-9DB9-448C7EC4A097.jpg)
These are 16" wheels with riveted centers. They have some raised bumps in the lug nut areas. These WILL NOT work.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/F2CE4572-4339-46DE-85D8-9F20DC18B1E1.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e398/unclemoak/1077FF41-C15F-4763-BFBA-B90A62C1D8DC.jpg
)
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Not that I wouldn't like 11 inch drums or discs (lean toward the 11's for appearance) but I am pretty much happy with my "new" brakes. Bought NOS shoes off ebay and took my mechanics advise to send the shoes to Rochester Brake and Clutch to put the softer brake shoes used by old car restorers to improve stopping power. Won't last as long as the usual replacement shoes but I'm lucky to get a thousand miles a year on my 51 3A. Just a thought and I spent my money on gears instead.
Steve