My Willys 3A and 3B Community
Your Projects => Your CJ-3B Project => Topic started by: Bob W on February 14, 2014, 08:12:05 AM
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I picked up a very rusty 1953 CJ-3B a few weeks ago. It's really a "kit" because the previous owner completely disassembled the Jeep and tossed the rear half of the body. Now for the famous question - too rusty to save???� ;D
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b1.jpg)
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They are never to rusty to save. Unless you only have rust particles to weld the replacement panels too. A new/used tub might be needed. Can you post pic's of the spotlight kinda neat. Saw one on a 3A in Ewillys couple days ago
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More pictures!
Is there anything left of the toe boards or transmission tunnel?
Is that the inner fender that I can see through the grill?? No radiator? Engine?
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The spotlight was rusted away and falling apart. I removed it and tossed the rusty broken remains so I can't get any more photos.
The Jeep is totally disassembled, for this photo I placed the cowl assembly on the frame and bolted the front sheet metal in place. The engine is not installed so that's why it is see-through under the hood. The firewall is solid but things begin to fade away on the angled section of the floor. The front part of the transmission tunnel is still there.
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Bob, do you still have the spotlight mount? I'm thinking about putting one on my '49.
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Unfortunately I don't have any parts of the spotlight. It was junk. Had to cut it off, the screws had become one with the mounts.
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Oh ok, thanks Bob.
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Unity still sells spotlights to wrecker and utility truck operators, and I'd bet you could buy a whole spotlight off a junk telephone truck for cheap, and get a bracket from a Unity dealer.
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Hmmm.
Looks just like my second '54 which eventually melded with a '59 and an MD Juan tub to become a real 3B again.
http://jeeps-folbots-etc.epizy.com/jeep/andyjeep.html
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It all depends on what you want the finished jeep to be, and how badly you want it.....
If the parts from the dash forward are usable then I'd go with Classic Enterprises sheet metal parts.
If there is little or nothing usable then it's MD Juan, or the elusive donor tub.....or maybe it would make a nice Doodlebug/Jitterbug....?
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I am planning to "save" this body. This thread is here under Modified Jeep Projects because the body will not be an accurate reproduction of the original. There may be some other mechanical deviations too� :o
Here is what some of it looked like when I picked it up. All the parts completely filled my 8' bed pickup and the trailer. A Jeep kit sure occupies way more space than an assembled Jeep!
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b2.jpg)
The pile of scrap metal is building.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b4.jpg)
The rust extends higher than usual....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b3.jpg)
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A couple days ago I received a box of Jeep goodies for this project from Nate. Funny how they came in a Walck's box!
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b5.jpg)
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Well, I hope you got the sand blaster cabinet along with the jeep...you might need it!
But, one piece at a time, and once you get a solid foundation to build from, you are on your way!
Can't wait for the progress reports!
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Unfortunately the sand blaster cabinet did not come with the Jeep. :(
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Thought you would enjoy that box Bob!� ;D If you want, I have a 3B cowl that is in better shape. I could meet up with you somewhere if you want it.
http://www.cj3apage.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1389393693
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Your cowl is better, less extra firewall holes too. I've already started on this one so I'm going to stick with it.
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Bob,
This looks like a fun project to watch.� Will there be a 3B book to follow?
I am generally up for a tub challenge, but the picture of the side panels even gave me pause.
I suspect your 'too rusty to save' question is rhetorical, but I will answer it anyway.�
"Too rusty to save?"� For you?� Of course not! :)
Tim�
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Bob,
This looks like a fun project to watch.� Will there be a 3B book to follow?
I am generally up for a tub challenge, but the picture of the side panels even gave me pause.
I suspect your 'too rusty to save' question is rhetorical, but I will answer it anyway.�
"Too rusty to save?"� For you?� Of course not! :)
Tim�
I don't ever want to hear anyone accuse me of bringing home hopeless projects any more!! I would have used that tub for parts myself.
Have fun and take lots of pictures, Bob..
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No 3B books will come from this project.
I have repro side cowl panels and custom side panels from a previous project that stalled. I will be using these panels on this project and hopefully I will be able to finish it this time. Just had to cut them off the previous failed project. The angle of the fender attachment flange on the repro panels isn't correct so that makes it more difficult to line things up.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b6.jpg)
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Bob you got drive! There is a CJ3B in Denver craigslist for 1350.00. Tub looks brand new compared to yours. Now, are you going to name your Jeep "Rusty"! Have fun with your project, and your welding practice will be at a all time high! John
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It's difficult to find an old Jeep around here in the rust belt that still has a body. If it was nice I wouldn't use it for this project, after all we are in the Modified section of the forum.
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This will be done in time for the picnic, right? ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hmmm, I take that as a no... :D
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Since there is basically no floor in this Jeep I will be building one from scratch. It will be a simplified version of the original. I'm also going to use M-38 removable floor panels, I like that idea. Anyone have an extra M-38 lower floor pan cover?
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b8.jpg)
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Sorry Bob, I don't.
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Slow going. I picked up an M-38 lower floor cover. Then I clamped the 3 cover assembly onto what was left of the CJ-3B floor and sprayed around it to mark the location. I cut out most of what remained of the hump and up into the firewall. Now the M-38 floor panels are temporarily screwed down and an empty transmission and transfer case are in place so I can build the remainder of the hump.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b9.jpg)
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Wow, Bob, you're moving along as fast as I am!
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Where did the side panels come from? (1/4 front and rear)
We are getting to be a bunch of regular modifiers here... ;D
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I had the side panels from a previous project that stalled. The front sides are just run of the mill repros. The front angle is not correct so the fenders don't fit properly, adding another set of problems. The rear sides are custom made from Brian Hainer.
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It looks really nice...more pictures of the sides?
Having that M-38 style floor panel is really a plus...my CJ-5 has a similar panel and access is greatly enhanced....in fact it's one of those night&day differences...
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Here is an earlier photo of the side....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b10.jpg)
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That sure looks nice....are these commercially available, or were they a limited batch?
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The rear body sides were custom made for me. The previous project was going to be a modified flat fender trail Jeep. Now that these are being used on a "stock" looking Jeep they will need to be un-customized. :'(
The sides are "Comp Cut" because it was going to have extra large tires and a wheel base stretch.
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Here's a pic....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b11.jpg)
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That sounds complicated...
The side looks a little like mine did after I cut the rust out!
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I've been working on my 3B a few hours here and there.
Made a tailgate surround and patched the tailgate.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b12.jpg)
Made up some rear wheelhouse tops.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b13.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b14.jpg)
Wheel house fronts. These should be part of the top but there is just too much going on for me to make it all one piece� :D
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b15.jpg)
Putting it together.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b16.jpg)
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Looks awesome Bob!
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Fantastic work. Way more professional than mine.
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Fantastic work.� Way more professional than mine.�
I don't think so, you can't see it close up in my photos ;D
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Looks great. I wish I had a few things in your photos.
-M38 tailgate
-Steel break
I'm sure there's more. How about a scan around your workshop? :)
Tim
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How about a scan around your workshop?
Disorganized at best.
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Disorganized at best.
Chaos?� That's precisely how I prefer it!� It wouldn't be a true Willys workshop otherwise.
Tim
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Progress......
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b17.jpg)
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Nice work.
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Beautiful...
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This project has really stalled for the summer :( The only thing I've managed to do is the tailgate. Welded in a new lower edge between the hinges where they are always rusted out and then put it on my CJ-3A for the weekend. I don't like driving around with the spare tire hanging on the side.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/P8070328.JPG)
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Come on Bob! ;)
In your defense, you appear to be making nearly every Willys event this year.
Speaking of this, are we going to see you at the FCT again this year?
Tim
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are we going to see you at the FCT again this year?
I am planning to be there. No Jeep this year, I will be bumming a ride from people.
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I finally found a couple days to work on this project again! It is time to turn the tub upside down to finish welding the stuff on the bottom of my simplified CJ body.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b18.jpg)
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Don't those tubs look great once you've replaced all the holes with steel?
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Bob,
Some thing is wrong today with my ability to access to the CJ-3B B.B.
Here's the dimensions you need.
Center of rear tank strap capture nut is 5/8" inboard of the wheelhouse and 5/8" back from the edge of the floor rise.
Center of the front tank strap capture nut is 10-1/2" inboard of the quarter panel and about 19-5/8" from the floor riser.
By the way that body is looking very nice. I'd really like to have an identical 3A tub.
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Ken,
Thanks so much for the dimensions!!! I'm planning to get those captured nuts welded in place tonight.
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As you know the thin gauge tank strap is 1" wide.
The ends are doubled over to increase thickness at the bolt hole.
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Oldtime, BobW,
Can you tell if this is a MDU 7004 Starter?� My apologies Bob. I don't mean to highjack your thread, but I'd seen Oldtime at the CJ5 or 3B page answering some starter questions.� I may be in the market for a new starter drive, and didn't want to miss-order.
Tim
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/imagejpg2_zps6c8cbf9d.jpg)
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is a MDU 7004 Starter
Looks like it to me. Hopefully Ken will see this and reply too.
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Progress....
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b19.jpg)
I don't know how you guys mange to get so much done in a short amount of time.
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Can you tell if this is a MDU 7004 Starter?
Yes that starter is an Autolite 12 volt MDU 7004.
The vintage correct Autolite 12 volt solenoid is installed exactly like it should be.
Originally that solenoid was electro plated in white zinc and was not painted.
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Got the underside of the tub epoxy-primed.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b20.jpg)
Also primed and painted the radio battery boxes for my CJ-V35/U
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b21.jpg)
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Looking crisp!
Tim
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Undercoated the bottom side
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b22.jpg)
Epoxy primer on the top side. I love primer. The lusterless finish makes my bodywork look great ;D
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b24.jpg)
Also painted a few more radio Jeep parts.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b23.jpg)
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Looks pretty sharp!
I was surprised to see you undercoat the body. I have never done it but there's a lot of controversy on whether it's good or bad - traps moisture, makes rust worse, miserable to deal with later on, etc etc etc.
Have you had good luck with it in the past? I had thought about doing it on my M38 but discarded the idea after hearing so much negativity. Then a world renowned author shows up and throws everything I thought I knew into a state of flux.
What's your take on the stuff?
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There is no magic for rust in the NE. It's just another form of paint. I'm using it because it is more resilient to damage from gravel and stuff thrown up from the tires. Undercoat is a pain when you are trying to do body work later on.
I'm also gonna use bedliner on the floor. :o
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"Oh, the humanity." Undercoating? We may have to discuss this...face to face. I insist you come to Colorado for a good old fashion scolding. ;)
Honestly, it looks great. Is that OD I see?
Tim
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"Oh, the humanity."� Undercoating?� We may have to discuss this...face to face.� I insist you come to Colorado for a good old fashion scolding. ;)
Sounds good.
Honestly, it looks great.� Is that OD I see?
This project will be OD. The perfect paint. Hides everything. Apply with a roller and touch up with a brush.� ::)
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I'm anxiously awaiting an update on this project. :)
Tim
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Looks good Bob!
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The project is currently on hold because a few important parts are currently on temporary duty assignment on my snow plow Jeep. The tub is pretty much done. The floor is coated with bed liner :o
Here is a spy photo for Tim ;)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b25.jpg)
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Ah yes. Just enough to tantalize. ;)
Looking forward to more.
Tim
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Bob, she is looking good!
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Thanks everyone!
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Naturally it was a bit optimistic thinking there was nothing left to do for a while. I began to install stuff on the bare grill. The footman loop, windshield tiedown strap, and hood welting all went on without a fight. The front marker light sockets were a mess. Ended up installing modern sockets for 1157 bulbs in the old housings. The headlight wiring needed to be replaced but the headlight retainer ring screws really put up a fight. Finally got them all removed and chased the threads. Amazing how a simple project can take soooooooooooooooo much time!
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b26.jpg)
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I feel your pain. Too many hours on single screws has aged me prematurely. At this point, if the screw won't turn after just a few half hearted attempts, I bring out the drill.
Tim
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The flame wrench also works good ::)
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Amazing how a simple project can take soooooooooooooooo much time!
That is so true. Hard to believe sometimes. I've spent the better part of a half hour scrounging through various bins simply searching for "just one more bolt that's the right size....".
Tub looks great. Is that just epoxy primer on bare metal? Looks much smoother than the mess I've created in my own garage.
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Tub looks great. Is that just epoxy primer on bare metal? Looks much smoother than the mess I've created in my own garage.
Thanks. This photo is epoxy primer. The photographs make it all look much better than in real life....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b24.jpg)
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The flame wrench also works good� ::)
I have had some success with my torch. I�m just reluctant. Me�with hot fire in hand�not a good combination. :(
The tub looks damn good to me. Bob is only seeing what he perceives to be flaws. Between you and me...I think he's losing his mind. :D ;D
Tim
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I want to have a rear seat in this Jeep but couldn't decide what kind. Finally it occurred to me...an M-38 seat. Got some brackets. I'm just going to bolt them to the tub.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b27.jpg)
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I just installed my M-38 rear seat and it's the first one I've ever played with. Pretty neat set-up the way it folds in either up or down. I am missing those two hooks in the lower left side of your photo. I believe they attach to the tailgate and to the seat back. Do they serve any purpose other than to keep that seat back from flopping forward during a quick stop? Structurally it seems those bottom brackets do all the heavy lifting.
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The J hooks do attach to the tailgate. They keep the rear of the seat in position so it can't flop around.
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Time for a test fit of the body on the chassis. It's amazing how many things don't exactly fit right.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b28.jpg)
This always reminds me of the Replitub 45 minutes and a wrench ad. ;D ;D ;D
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/45min.jpg)
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Test fit day is a fun day. It looks like you're ready for fit and finish day.
45 minutes. Hmmm. Seems a bit ambitious. ;D
But having a lift like that would sure help. 8-)
Tim
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Well, I used up my 45 minutes yesterday installing the oil pressure gauge. I was ready to pop it in when I decided that the rusty old line should be replaced too.
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Hi Bob,
Any updates on this project? Was kind of hoping to see it at the FCT 2015. :)
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I've been making slow progress. It should be running soon. I'm hoping to bring it to Colorado someday, but it won't be this year.
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I understand. I'm just anxious to see the final outcome for this project.
Tim
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I understand.� I'm just anxious to see the final outcome for this project.
Tim
Me too (anxious) . . this has sparked my interest in getting back to work on Hoover. I was hoping to make 2015 CFCT, but life got in the way . . . now will set sites on 2016 . . hope I can make it, to meet Tim in person, and Bob again.
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I've got new NDTs coming, they should be here tomorrow!!!!!
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Hi Bob,
The NDT's will look great...can't wait for the final assembly pictures!!
Randy
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Got the new NDTs mounted.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b29.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b30.jpg)
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New tire day is always a great day. It looks great.
Hmmm. Clever photo angle. >:(
Tim
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I'm a little late to the party here, but WOW, what awesome tub work! I read through the thread but I didn't see mention of a name for the jeep. Is there one?
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No name for the CJ-3B yet. Really the only Jeep of mine that has a name is my TJ.
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Should we launch a contest to find a name to Bob's Willys?
It might turn really funny.
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Reminds me of a contest we had at the first Killington Jeep Jamboree. There was one trail with no name. We decided that the trail participants could come up with some names and then decide which one they liked the best and that would become the trail name. They decided on the name "Rut Land". Rut meaning "A sunken track or groove made by the passage of vehicles". The town of Rutland, VT is right next to Killington, so that was intended to be funny. Well the crowd booed the idea and the trail name became "No Name".
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If you do decide to name it, I think it should begin with a simple letter. Maybe something like "X". ;)
Tim
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I like the sound of X98.
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I like the sound of X98.
That does sort of flow off the tongue! :)
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Bob,
If its numbers you like then my vote goes for " AGENT� 99 " :-*
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I have always liked the look of X98, the first CJ-3B.
(http://cj3b.info/Photos/Poster/X98205.JPG)
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The more I see photos of that "first" CJ-3B the more I like the look. It's too bad it wasn't the final design.
Tim
PS: Thank you for the part. I really appreciate it.
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Finally got enough stuff together to go for a ride. That's always a milestone :) , but it leads to finding more problems too. :o
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b31.jpg)
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Said out loud when I saw this photo...
[size=12]"Holy Crap! That thing is Awesome!!!"[/size]
You've got some serious talent Bob. Thanks for taking us along on this ride.
Tim
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That's amazing. I never knew it existed. Are you going to put the same stencils on it that were in the picture? You should name it---X99! John
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Hey Bob, it looks great!!� I wondered when you were finally going to reveal it!
Now I want a ride ....
Randy
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Very nice, Bob! Any results in yet from the road test?
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[size=20]WOW ![/size]
[size=11]That thing is so KEWL ![/size]
I had no idea what your were up to.
You definitely pulled a fast over on me and maybe everyone with that trick.
Down right sneaky the way you tilted this topic as CJ-3B.
You obviously had this thing all schemed out from the git go.
That's why you started with a 1953 vintage Right ?
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I'm sure it runs as good as it looks. Great job!
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I wanted an F head engine in a Flatty (72HP!!) but I still can't quite get over the look of a CJ-3B hood. X98 seemed like the perfect solution. I've still got a few bugs to work out but nothing serious.
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You obviously had this thing all schemed out from the git go.
That's why you started with a 1953 vintage Right ?
I was looking for a 5 gauge dashboard and a Jeep that was in rough shape so I wouldn't feel bad about modifying the front clip. 1953 was perfect!
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I was looking for a 5 gauge dashboard and a Jeep that was in rough shape so I wouldn't feel bad about modifying the front clip. 1953 was perfect!
Makes good sense to me.
If I'm not mistaken the prototype X-98 was 1950 vintage.
Nice looking work on making that special hood and grill.
Do you know if the original X 98 had the bolt in floor pans like an M38 has ?
Be very careful with all that extra power ...Ha Ha Ha !
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Do you know if the original X 98 had the bolt in floor pans like an M38 has ?
I think that X-98 was the result of Engineering Release 5607 dated 29 June 1949. This was to replace the CJ-3A with a vehicle powered by the F-head engine. Being a new design civilian vehicle it wouldn't have had bolt in floor plates. There is more information on X-98 over on The CJ-3B Page...
http://cj3b.info/CJ4Prototypes.html
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Wow Bob that looks amazing.If the CJ -3B's came like that I would so be me one. Did you fabricator the hood yourself? Also did make the nut retainers yourself?
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I did make the hood from 5 separate pieces of CJ-5 and CJ-3B hoods.
The weld nuts are from McMaster-Carr.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#weld-nuts/=ykt92w
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I missed the reveal photo until just now. WOW!!!! AWESOME!!!!!
A one of a kind beast!!
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On Labor Day weekend we always go out to make sure the Jeep Jamboree trails are in good condition, because it's coming up soon. On Saturday the power steering pump on my off-road Jeep (TJ) failed - so Sunday I took the CJ-3B out for a test ride on the trails. It performed very well on some tough trails. There are a few more bugs I need to work out and it would really be nice if the crawl ratio was a bit lower. Here is a photo of the Jeep between obstacles...
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b32.jpg)
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Bob, that jeep looks like its right at home, in its element.
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Great job Bob!
.... bring it out west.
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I hope to bring it west next year.
I'm running 7.50 x 16 tires so I expect a bit of rubbing - but there was some serious contact in the rear when I was in the rough stuff. I put it in full stuff to check out the problem.....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b33.jpg)
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Maybe some stiffer springs on the rear? Or maybe that would reduce its effectiveness in the tough stuff. I'm not a suspension guy. Maybe it's better to be soft. Help me out here.
I really like this Willys.
Tim
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I installed a gusset inside each rear wheelhouse, similar to the spare tire reinforcement gusset in a CJ-3A. These were to give the wheelhouse more strength for the roll bar. Well they need to be trimmed on the bottom, the tires hit them hard. I also need to change the rear seat bracket attaching bolts which are in a bad place for tire contact.
Soft springs are best for off-road, more flex = more traction. I'm using stock replacement springs on this Jeep. Stock springs are not known to be soft but these are performing well.
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Bob, I have a set of ten leaf rear springs I don't need. if you come to the FCT, I'll give them to you to try out.
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Bob, I have a set of ten leaf rear springs I don't need.� if you come to the FCT, I'll give them to you to try out.
I appreciate the offer. These springs are working good, I really need to modify the body to solve the problem :(
And it would be difficult to fit a pair of rear springs in the overhead compartment of the airplane.
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You can see the gussets in this earlier photo. I made the mistake of measuring a CJ-3A gusset and placing these in the same location. CJ-3As had 6.00 x 16 tires :-[ After they were all welded in place I noticed that the gusset on an M-38 is different - to allow for 7.00 x 16 tires :o I was kinda hoping it wouldn't be a big problem, but it is.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b18.jpg)
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So I did make a few modifications to my CJ-3B, other than the front sheetmetal. Most are to improve the off-road capabilities.
The stock rear axle vent hole is welded up and a new vent installed on the top of the tube with a hose extending up high.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b34.jpg)
As mentioned above the tires are 7.50 x 16. To make them fit better in stock wheelwells the body has a 1" lift. The steering is upfront Jeep manual Saginaw. The steering box is mounted up high for clearance and the shaft goes over the front crossmember. Jeep optional front tow hooks are mounted on the frame rails. And there is the 12 volt electric Ramsey winch.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b35.jpg)
Frame mounted dual master cylinder with remote reservoirs. The front axle is a Jeep narrow track Dana 30 with disc brakes. "Narrow track" is actually wider than the stock D25 which allows for smaller turning radius, even with larger tires. 11" drum brakes are on the rear.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b36.jpg)
Since the body is raised one inch, the brake and clutch pedals are also moved up, providing a flat frame rail that's less likely to get hung up on rocks.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b37.jpg)
And the entire powerplant is up, along with the transmission crossmember for better ground clearance.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b38.jpg)
For safety there are seat belts and a roll bar.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b39.jpg)
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Bob,
Very interesting details !
Did you have to offset the electric Ramsey to clear the Saginaw gear ?
Got a frontal view of the steering tie rods and axle etc ?
With your removable floor pans and 1" body lift it becomes an excellent candidate for a Borg Warner T98.
Wonderful idea to move the pedal pivot up with the body lift.
I certainly never thought of that one.
I think the tall skinny 7.50 x 16 is really the optimum tire at roughly 31" actual height.
Any taller of tire mandates cutting of the sheet metal since the rear wheelhouse opening measures 31".
I suspect that it still has the stock shock absorber mounts ?
How did you fit the shocks to the D 30 spring plate ?
Is this your first modified CJ ?
It is simply amazing how many ways a person can change and improve upon various aspects of the universal Jeeps.
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The winch is offset toward the passenger side to clear the steering box.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b41.jpg)
Here is the steering linkage. The drag link is steeper than I'd like it to be. I'm planning to do a tie rod flip to get it up higher and also move the drag to the top of the steering arm to level it out. Right now they need to stay where they are since my snow plow frame will interfere. I'm using stock shocks, mounts and spring plates. The U-bolts just need to be massaged a bit to convince them to fit into the holes due to the larger tube size of a D30.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b42.jpg)
With your removable floor pans and 1" body lift it becomes an excellent candidate for a Borg Warner T98.
I'd like to have the 1st gear of a T98! The 1" powerplant lift eliminates any clearance gained by the body lift. A "Warn" underdrive would be the perfect solution. ;D
Don't tell anyone but I have been modifying Jeeps since I purchased my first CJ-5 in 1978. :o
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I keep thinking of more Bubba Bob modifications I have done to this Jeep. The transmission/transfer case vent is routed up higher with tube and hose to the firewall. The fuel tank is plastic because the bottom of a metal tank begins to rust out the second it's installed here in the rust belt. The wheels are M-38 because they have a bead hump, unlike other early Jeep wheels. The tires are siped and running tubeless.
It's 12 volts with a Delco alternator. There is an aluminum radiator and custom fan shroud. It has turn signals with a Sparton turn signal switch.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b40.jpg)
I've got a few more modifications planned, we will see if I ever get a round tuit.
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Not really sure why you decided to lift the tub up to fit 7.50 x 16" tires.
I successfully ran 35" tall tires on a nearly stock 2A using 3" lowered shackle brackets and a pitman drop adapter.
Raising the axle and transfer breathers is a probably a good idea.
I ran a stock 3B for many many miles in deep water during the great flood of 1993.
Axles took in no water and I kept it below the floor pans so the transfer case was never effected.
The muddy river water entered my front propeller shaft splines and by the time is discovered that, it was ruined.
Are you able to get the full 27-1/2* steering angle with your Dana 30 and tall tires ?
My stock 3B has 14" clearance to the skid plate.
Over the years I've only seen one old Willys with an underdrive unit.
5" wide M38 wheels are the exact same thing as the factory optional heavy duty wheel for the 3B.
So technically those are a stock option.
You say your NDT's are tubeless?
How tall do they actually measure ?
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I had not checked the steering angle previously. Looks like it's about 26*. There is plenty of space to bump it up to 27-1/2*
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b44.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b43.jpg)
I went out to the barn and checked the skid plate clearance on a few stock configuration Jeeps. Here is what I have...
CJ-3A = 9"
CJ-3A with 6.50 x 16 tires = 9-1/2"
M-38 = 10"
I'm running these NDTs tubeless. The measured height is 30-1/2".
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b45.jpg)
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Not really sure why you decided to lift the tub up to fit 7.50 x 16" tires.
I successfully ran 35" tall tires on a nearly stock 2A using 3" lowered shackle brackets and a pitman drop adapter.
It's more than just tire clearance. The steering shaft fits between the front crossmember, grill, and radiator. The powerplant and transmission crossmember are also up higher giving more ground clearance in a couple places. The clutch/brake pedal pivot is above the bottom of the frame and the pedals still come through the stock holes in the floor.
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Assuming a Jeep is basically stock; the height of the skid plate seems to be mainly dependent upon tire diameter and the amount of spring arch.
I'm running 6.50 x16 " STA Super Traxions.
Those particular tires run quit large for there size.
They measure 30-1/2" tall mounted on the 4-1/2" KH wheels.
My springs are original re-built Mathers.
They are not re-arched springs..
I disassemble old spring packs and salvage the good leafs.
I assemble my spring packs by only using original leafs with good arch.
50 to 70 year old Mathers were exceptionally well made springs.
With D25 and Rzeppa shafts at 29* maximum angle my Super Traxion tires are just touching the leaf springs.
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Looks like the treads were maybe siped using a box knife ?
Never seen that trick done on NDT's before...
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I used a heated grooving tool and put the blade in backwards. I think a box knife would also work.
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Hi Bob,
How deep did you cut?
Tim
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About 3/8". At first I wasn't being careful enough and when I came out of the rubber doing the inner lugs I accidentally made some slices in between the lugs on the outer half of the tire. :-[
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Thanks!
I've never siped a tire before. If there is an advantage, it seems like NDTs and NDCCs would be the perfect tire for this modification.
I've read that with today's modern tread designs, siping doesn't offer a significant advantage. What do you think?
Tim
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I'm not a tire guy but additional siping on a modern tire probably offers no benefit, they are already siped from the factory. NDTs are not so modern� ;D
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I'm certainly not a tire expert either but I'll make a few comments.
On Bob's tires we only see a transverse siping direction and not a longitudinal cut.
I think that his transverse siping will do little to stop side slipping on wet pavement.
However his transverse siping should certainly help with fore/aft grip.
Because the siping is a fine slip it theoretically should not pick up any stones.
Also the transverse siping should actually decrease tread wear by allowing increased tire flex.
In theory longitudinal siping would help with sidling traction and also tire wear.
With Bob's siping he still maintains large treads blocks.
Large tread blocks will reduce any tendency for the tread to "chunk off" under pressure.
That's why you never see an NDT with missing chunks of tread .
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I find that odd that your NDTs are only 30-1/2" tall. I wonder what they measure without weight. My 700-16s are 30-1/2". I am considering going with 750s for more clearance. Coker has 750-16 advertised as 31.6' diameter.
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These are Firestone from Summit Racing.
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On the Coker website my tires are listed as 31.6" tall. Maybe my tape measure is broken?
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Wonder what they measure left to right or without weight?
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Seems to me that there exists no common industry standard for measuring tire height.
I find that to be very frustrating.
For example the Interco tires always measure notably shorter than they indicate..
That's one good thing about the STA's they actually measure taller than suggested.
The only real test I know of is to get actual mounted/inflated tire diameter from someone who owns the tire in question
I did a short study on various tire heights and I estimate that the average 7.50 x 16" bias jeep tire (new with full tread) measures around 31.5" tall after inflation and mounted on the narrow rims.
I figure the diameter loss due to GVWR averages .97 times the un weighted tire height.
Approximate .03 diameter loss due to 2250 GVWR.
Regardless I prefer to use tires that are the same diameter as the rear wheelhouse opening.
For the stock Willys CJ that's 31" tall.
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I went on a cool Willys Run today in Central NY state. I set my tires at 12psi and I'm happy to say they performed very well! May try 10psi next time.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/wwra.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/wwrb.jpg)
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Nice! Bob, why such a low psi in the tires?
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Low pressure allows the tire to flex better giving more traction :)
When the pressure gets too low the tire bead can unseat, then all the air escapes :'(
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That X98 looks to be in its element. Nice.
I dropped tire pressure to 20lbs at the FCT. I'll try a lower pressure next time.
Tim
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On-road pressure should be higher than off-road pressure. Tough choice for the FCT. There was no on-road driving at the NY event.
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So, in June at the Willys Picnic I purchased a T90C for X98. I'm planning to put it together over the winter and have it ready for spring wheelin. I like to build transmissions with serviceable used parts because of the quality issues with some of the reproduction stuff. Unfortunately I'm out of good used parts. Anyone put a T90 together in the past year with new parts that actually work good? If so where did you get them? Looks like I'm going to need at least a 2nd gear and a small parts kit.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b46.jpg)
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Hi Bob,
I don't have many miles on the Tranny from my Whitey project. Mostly "chassis around the hood" type miles, so I'm not sure how these will hold up long term. I had the classic pop out of 2nd issue after just installing a small parts kit.
After a number of attempts at the easy stuff, I purchased a 2nd gear from Walcks. Claims to be Made in the USA. I purchased a synchronizer hub assembly from the QTM Parts guy on eBay. Claims to be made in Japan.
After replacing these two components this transmission performs flawlessly. Again, not many miles yet, but with the sub standard parts available out there, I call this a win.
Tim
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Thanks Tim.
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You can source genuine OEM NOS T90 second speed gears from eBays ARMYTANKGUY.
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Thanks Ken. Who makes good small parts kits (rollers etc)?
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Bob,
The last T90 I built about 3 years ago was OEM NOS from the 1960's.
I'm not building anymore Borg Warner T90's so last year I sold out all my NOS T90 C parts.
Basically everything I use is rebuilt original or OEM NOS.
Occasionally I will use some NOS "Seal Tested" parts.
I use nothing else.
It's a time consuming challenge to find the OEM parts and it's getting harder all the time.
You might try eBay seller "nos4jeeps". (in Turkey)
But then again I think he is starting to source some other junk now, so make sure what your getting.
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Thanks for the additional sources!!!
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I did the flex test on X98 today just to see how far it would go.
I lifted the right front wheel until the right rear wheel came off the ground and lowered back down until it was touching again.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b47.jpg)
Looks like 17-1/2"
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b48.jpg)
The right front bump stop was still some distance from the bumpstop.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b49.jpg)
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I've never done a test like this before.� Would this be a good number on these old flat fenders?
That your axle isn't touching the stops...is this because of fresh leaf springs?
Your suspension is stock, right?
Tim
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I'd say this is probably about average for a flatty. The newish springs may not flex as good as old ones. It is a stock suspension. Usually this test is done on an RTI ramp where you get a number that can be compared to other vehicles.
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There is a good description of RTI numbers over on Wikipidia...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_travel_index
My CJ-3B comes in at 640.
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Wonder what they measure left to right or without weight?
Without weight they are a little bit taller. Here is a 7.00 x 16, the 7.50 x 16, and a 6.50 x 16.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b50.jpg)
No load the 7.50 x 16 is now about 31-3/4" tall.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b51.jpg)
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Here is X98 dressed for winter......
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b52.jpg)
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And it sounds like you may need it sooner than later!
Looks like it'll handle the snow.....
Big fire up by Idaho City....luckily you missed it by three months...but it's raining now...
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Funny, I put the plow on yesterday and we got a dusting of snow last night.
Seems like we lucked out on our visit, right in between fires.
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I' going to have to bring BAM BAM over there this winter to see how your 750s look on him.
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7.50 x 16 are probably optimum for use with the D30 front axle.
My current build cannot run anything taller than STA 6.50 x 16.
The 30-1/2" tall tires are starting to rub the frame and springs at maximum possible steering angle of 29*.
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I' going to have to bring BAM BAM over there this winter to see how your 750s look on him.
Stop by any time. I can also bring them to the Mason Dixon show next Sunday if you are going to be there.
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Progress. Today I replaced the accelerator pedal, pivot, pin and spring. It had about as much side to side play as idle to full throttle travel. Frustrating to drive it that way. Now it's nice! I found a new accelerator pedal last week at the Mason - Dixon show, and already had the other parts, in anticipation of repairing it.
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Progress. Today I replaced the accelerator pedal, pivot, pin and spring. It had about as much side to side play as idle to full throttle travel. Frustrating to drive it that way. Now it's nice! I found a new accelerator pedal last week at the Mason - Dixon show, and already had the other parts, in anticipation of repairing it.
Any spare pedal springs laying around? ::) :-[
Tim
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Walcks has them in a kit with other stuff. I think AJP has it separately. It's just a piece of spring steel, if you can find the raw material - just make one.
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I took the plow back off so I could go out 4 wheeling with a few good friends today......
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b53.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b54.jpg)
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Cool photos.
Looks like Bam-Bam. Who belongs to the orange 3B? I don think I've seen it before.
Tim
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OJ belongs to Seth King.
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Okay, just did a double take.� Is that Bam-Bam...with a roll bar?
Edit: I did get the springs from AJP. Thanks for the lead.
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Bam Bam has seat belts, and that roll bar installed for now, to comply with the rules of the off-road park. X98 and OJ also have roll bars and seat belts!
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Nice pictures. I think Bam Bam is a Jeep Roving Machine! He's everywhere. Europe soon huh? Jeff deserves a award for the most driven and trail tuned Jeep. Drive it there, crawl it, and drive it back. Reminds me of the old 50's race car days where they drove the race cars to the track. John
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Sorry to be late to the party:
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/Rausch%20Creek/2015/493B198B-2E7E-45E2-BBEF-14E86F7D1EA2.jpg)
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/Rausch%20Creek/2015/72B733B2-12F7-472D-AF09-1804AE0D4CEC.jpg)
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/Rausch%20Creek/2015/6EAE8CFA-72C5-4E81-A37B-3E464E9B8D11.png)
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/Rausch%20Creek/2015/5192BE5D-9109-4C56-8DE5-F5E2655648B1.jpg)
Seth is "Windyhill"
Of the 3 jeeps, it was clear that X98 was the most able. Some do to mechanics, some due to driver experience. It was definitely a blast!
Here are two videos:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQEQqf8DM5I[/media]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyugrz6yZBA[/media]
Sent from my iPad
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It was a really fun day!!!!! Thanks Jeff for the photos and video.
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You guys got with it. Nice videos. A narrow front bumper looks to be a plus in rocks like that. Next you'll need the M38 waterproof ignition and go play in water. ::)
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So Bob.... Was X98 running a T90A transmission in the Rausch creek video.?
You coming along on your T90C build ?
First and second gears will be about 10% lower with the T90C.
I feel that a 10% change is just enough to notice a real difference.
I expect that you have a rear traction differential ?
Looking real good.
By the way I bought that OEM Willys Motors T90 gasket and seal set just to get the copper front bearing cap bolt seals.
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X98 still has the T90A in it. The T90C is done and ready to be installed. I'm currently running a Lincoln locker in the rear. There are a bunch of improvements planned for X98, but I could not get them all done for this season of wheeling.
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Began to collect parts for some winter changes to X98 that didn't get done last year. 11" rear brake backing plates with parking brake provision and hardware. It already has 11" rear brakes but the parking brake is currently on the transfer case. Also parts to make up a stronger tie rod and drag link and "flip" them to the top of the knuckle.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b55.jpg)
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Slow progress. The transfer case parking brake is gone. That provides a bit more ground clearance.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b56.jpg)
Made up a heavy duty tie rod and drag link. Did a tie rod flip to get it up higher. Also flipped one end of the drag link to level it out.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b57.jpg)
Made up a new center crossmember to provide more ground clearance. Still need to finish it up. Next up is a skid plate...
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b58.jpg)
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Looks good. How much ground clearance will you achieve with these changes?
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... and where did you get your siping tool?
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I'm not sure exactly how much better the ground clearance is. Looks like the crossmember will be about 3" better than stock. The transfer case hangs down below the crossmember on the passenger side so the new skid plate will not be flat on the bottom to take advantage of clearance where it can.
I borrowed a the grooving tool from a friend. I really think a utility knife would have worked almost as good since I was siping with a grooving tool.
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Finally made some progress on a belly pan/skid plate. The transfer case pan is the lowest point under the Jeep. Originally I wanted to make a multi level skid plate to take advantage of better clearance in other areas. After a couple false starts and wasted time I decided to just go with a simple asymmetrical U-shaped skid. I had it bent up from 3/16" steel plate and then welded on an angled front and rear. It extends up both sides of the frame where it's bolted on. I wanted it to be strong, lightweight, and easy to remove. Turns out it is not so light ;D
Here is the driver's side..
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b59.jpg)
I ground down the transfer case drain plug to get a bit more clearance. The flat center section of the skid is just below the lowest point of the transfer case.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b60.jpg)
Here is what it looks like from below. I don't have the NDTs on it right now to make an accurate measurement but it looks like it will have about 15" of ground clearance.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b61.jpg)
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Forgot to mention that I removed two vertical inches from the exhaust header pipe to get the exhaust system up higher. While working on the new skid plate I noticed that the left rear wheel bearing was bad so it got replaced along with the axle seals. Since I was in there I also removed the "Lincoln" locker and installed a LockRight locker. Didn't want to spend any money on this axle since it isn't what I really want in X98 but there is no telling how long it will take to put together what I do want.
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Your efforts to get every bit of ground clearance possible were in the back of my mind yesterday. I was driving home and found myself behind a Jk...I think. Could have been a YJ but I can't tell the difference from the rear.
Not the bumper, but the rear cross member or toe hitch couldn't have been more than 6" from the ground. It looked so odd, I began to wonder if they do a 2 wheel drive Jeep. Otherwise, it looked like a completely stock Jeep with a cut suspension. I tried to take a picture while driving, but couldn't pull it off before she turned.
Tim
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Some Wranglers with smaller factory tires do sit quite low.
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Great idea on the skid plate....... I think I'll steal it. I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a rubber grommet to keep some separation from the TC drain plug and the skid plate.
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Great idea on the skid plate....... I think I'll steal it.� I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a rubber grommet to keep some separation from the TC drain plug and the skid plate.
It has about 3/16" to 1/4" clearance right now. I don't think it will touch from normal powerplant movement. If it does touch it will probably just make an annoying noise/vibration.
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Stock rear differential covers are very thin. It is common to damage them while driving off road. Sometime during the summer wheelin' season my rear cover got dented. It was touching the ring gear but it never leaked and no other damage was done. I installed a front D44 cover on the rear last night. The front covers are much stronger than rear covers.
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It has about 3/16" to 1/4" clearance right now. I don't think it will touch from normal powerplant movement. If it does touch it will probably just make an annoying noise/vibration.
I just meant if the skid plate got dented it could start touching. I thought about making a rubber washer that was held in place by the drain plug boss. Thick enough to touch the TC pan and the skid plate.
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I had a few questions about my steering so here are some more photos....
It's in winter mode now so the snow plow is installed. The frame is boxed from the round crossmember forward and three tubes are welded in placed for the steering box mounting bolts. The top bolt is above the frame and has that tripod to support it. The box is forward as far as possible and the front bumper is bowed up slightly to fit the box.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b62.jpg)
Here is the steering column at the firewall. This column was in another Jeep, I would really like to shorten it so it doesn't extend so far out for this application. The stock worm gear was cut off the shaft then the bottom was bored out to 3/4". Then a splined shaft slid into the original shaft and was welded on. I made a plastic bushing to support the shaft in the end of the column. I think Advance Adapters makes a bronze equivalent. All the steering shaft parts are Borgeson steering parts http://www.borgeson.com/
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b63.jpg)
Here is the steering shaft at the grill area. I have a 1" body lift so the steering shaft just fits. You can see the 1" spacer in this photo. The crossmember was dimpled to give enough space for the U-joint. The grill also has a slight bend in the sheetmetal so everything fits.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b64.jpg)
Here is the tie rod and drag link connected to the right knuckle of the CJ-7 Dana 30 front axle.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b65.jpg)
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Looks good Bob!
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Appreciate the pics and info. Cheers!
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I started to gather tooling and supplies for the next project....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b66.jpg)
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That looks familiar. I might know what you're up to.
Tim
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That will never work :-?
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It has to work, I saw photos of it on the internet!!
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Looks like the ultimate hand me down/ pass around tool to me ..... Obviously more time involved making the tool than using it.
What O.D. of tube maybe 1-1/2" ?
And what wall thickness are you all bending ?
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1-1/2" x 0.120" DOM tube.
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I bent my C type spring shackles so I picked up some NOS parts to make up M-170 spring shackles and installed them on the rear of X98. I'm not sure I like them.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b67.jpg)
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I think "H" shackles would be better.
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So what exactly caused the "U" type shackles to bend ?
In my opinion certain failures are a good thing.
According to the "Intentional Weak Link Theory"...
The inexpensive and easy to replace parts should fail just prior to all expensive or relatively inaccessible components.
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Running into rocks bent the C shackles. I prefer C shackles over H shackles because with just occasional greasing the Cs last forever. The military obviously wanted something stronger than the open C so they went with these "M-170" or "C with a bar" type. They are just really wide and the grease fittings are asking to be sheared off by a rock. We shall see, if they perform well I have another pair for the front.
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I'm no expert but in recent weeks, I think I have switched over to thinking "H" shackles (with urethane bushings) would be better.
"C" shackles don't last forever because they get bent. I bent 3 last year. The extra brace, like the M170 has, solves that problem but then where is the give? Kinda like the point oldtime is making, better a broken shackle than a broken spring eye.
I'm not a big fan of "H shackles with the stock bushings because, IMO they are not flexible enough and that is a lot of twist on a 7/16" bolt, but the urethane replacement bushings are quite flexible so you get the strength of the "H" but yet flexibility from the soft bushings. I image they will not last as long as the M170 shackle but then isn't the flexibility worth it? It looks to me like an M170 shackle is unforgiving and transfers all the work to the spring eye. Am I mistaken?
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I am thinking about the H shackles with urethane bushings. As usual there is no perfect solution.
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I myself prefer the Willys "U" type shackles especially concerning durability.
Don't mind me I simply call them "U" type because that's what Willys called them.
Regardless of the proper term....The "U" type shackles are one and the same with the "C" designation..
The rubber "Silent Blok" bushings actually provide greater flexibility than the modern urethane bushing.
But the Silent Bloks will more readily be destroyed as compared to urethane bushings when used under adverse conditions.
Flexed hard and often the "Silent Bloks" could certainly wear out (delaminate) within a years time.
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The rubber "Silent Blok" bushings� actually provide� greater flexibility than the modern urethane bushing.
... not on my jeep.� What are you basing this on?
Edit:� The urethane bushings do not have an outer metal sleeve like the conventional rubber ones so the urethane is thicker, plus they have urethane side flanges which allow for perpendicular flexibility, plus they are greasable.� It only stands to reason that they would be more flexible.
....But the Silent Bloks will more readily be destroyed as compared to urethane bushings when used under adverse conditions.
That I can believe
Flexed hard and often the "Silent Bloks" could certainly wear out (delaminate) within a years time.
In my experience, one hit with a "C" shackle against a rock and it's toast so the potential for them to have to be replaced is greater than 1 per year. ...... For regular trail riding where the "C" shackles are not susceptible to hard collision, I would agree they would be a better choice due to their longevity.� I think Bob has proven that his will be in harms way.
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... not on my jeep.� What are you basing this on?
Edit:� The urethane bushings do not have an outer metal sleeve like the conventional rubber ones so the urethane is thicker, plus they have urethane side flanges which allow for perpendicular flexibility, plus they are greasable.� It only stands to reason that they would be more flexible.
Well I thought it should be obvious that the rubber is softer quieter and has far greater memory than does urethane.
True that the urethane bushing is much thicker but the memory is no where the same.
Anyway I do agree that urethane will definitely give the best results on a� frequently and well flexed suspension system.
The rubber bushing is ok for normal use but becomes useless soon after the rubber tares away from it's metal sleeve.
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This past Saturday I drove over to PA for the Annual Redball Jim Thorpe Militaria & MV Parts Swap Meet. It is the first show of the year for me and gets the enthusiasm back up after the winter. I also stop by Walck's in Bowmanstown for a visit with Carl and Dan. I picked up a "new" NDCC tire for X98's spare at the show. Looks like it has never been on the ground, the rubber is soft, and is probably at least 20 years newer than my current spare tire.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b68.jpg)
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Progress. Got one "top bow" bent up today. Still need to bend another top bow and a front hoop. The tube bender really makes nice bends, thanks for loaning it to me Jeff!!!
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b69.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b70.jpg)
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Slowly making headway. Made up another "top bow" today. Replaced the leaking water pump. So many projects, so little time.
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More work on the roll cage today. Made up some angle iron supports for the top of the rear wheelhousings. Trimmed the front top bow to length.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b71.jpg)
Did a little adjustment on one of the bends with my custom tube bender.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b72.jpg)
Starting to tack weld things together.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b73.jpg)
A bit of adjustment on the rear bow.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b74.jpg)
Test fit of the top on the bows. There are still a lot of missing pieces in the cage.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b75.jpg)
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Looks good Bob. So going M606 style, eh?
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Custom tube bender! WICKED DECENT!!
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Looks good Bob. So going M606 style, eh?
The canvas is actually an M-38 enclosure. I wanted something that is (relatively) easy to install and remove. That eliminates original CJ tops!
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Custom tube bender! WICKED DECENT!!
Very inexpensive too ;D
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Looking good! I like how you refer to them as "bows" since that is the idea. How wide are they at the top?
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They are 57" wide at the top and taper in to fit inside the tub rails at the base.
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I really do like the way these "Bow Bars" are turning out. Cool way to have it both ways. 8-)
Tim
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Bob, I'm not sure how they attach to the tub. I have to assume they are easy-off and easy-on. Do you have a pic of attachment? Why not just do an M-38 bracket?
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This is primarily a roll cage to protect the occupants so it is not removable. A secondary feature is that it supports the canvas enclosure without the need for regular top bows. It uses conventional CJ roll bar style angle plates bolted to the top of the wheel house and the body side panels. It's not even close to being done yet, still have to make up a bunch of components and weld them together.
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So when you are finished with the roll cage, I assume you are going to test it? ;D
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The reason he put the bows near the trees is so they are bonded and used to them. The Jeep will feel at home that way when lying on it's side next to them. 8-)
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Around here the bows/cage will rub a lot of trees, the trails are tight here.
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Here is the fenderwell cage support angle, still needs to have the mounting bolt holes drilled, a rear vertical support added, and everything welded together.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b76.jpg)
Got the front hoop bent.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b77.jpg)
Purchased another tool to help fabricate the roll cage connector components...
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b78.jpg)
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Started making the tubes that go between the bows today. One end was easy, just used a tubing notcher. The other end required the Pipe Master to transfer the shape over to the tube and then hand cut the complicated curves.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b79.jpg)
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Slowly making headway...
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b80.jpg)
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Looks good!
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Finally got all the pieces made up and tack welded together, then pulled the cage/top bow assembly out of the Jeep to complete the welding.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b81.jpg)
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The top bow/roll cage is bolted in.
Next up, install parking brake hardware at the wheels. I removed the transfer case parking brake for more ground clearance. Got the left side done tonight...
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b82.jpg)
Also installing right thread wheel studs. I don't have anything against left threads on the left side but the front are already right thread and I like to standardize things.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b83.jpg)
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My '3A also has RH threads on front.� �The only LH are on driver rear.� � I will be replacing those at some point.
Standardizing is good . .� if all are RH, then no need to think about which way to loosen/tighten.� :)
Oh . . rollbar looks great. Hopefully you never need to use it. ;D
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The only LH are on driver rear.
Same with mine. Which begs the question...why did Willys use left threads at all on the wheels and shackles? Were all manufacturers of the day doing this? Wouldn't they have first actually tested the premise that LHT's are even needed at all? What were they thinking?
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What were they thinking?
I believe the practice of LH threads on the LH side goes back to the days of horse and buggys.
All buckboards and wagons used LH treaded spindle nuts on the LH side of the carriage.
Otherwise the spindle would loosen while traveling foreward. Horse carriages were never backed up any great distances.
It's rather strange because the actual front Willys spindle nut is RH threaded and secured with a lockwasher and jam nut.
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Next up, install parking brake hardware at the wheels. I removed the transfer case parking brake for more ground clearance. Got the left side done tonight...
This is interesting, but I'm confused. When the cable is pulled, what happens in there?
The bars look great.
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why did Willys use left threads at all on the wheels and shackles?
As mentioned above the left threaded lug nuts on the left side was very common in the good old days. In theory they would not unintentionally loosen while driving down the road.
The two left threaded shackle bushings were for a different reason. They were only in the spring eye end of the shackle on opposite corners because when the bushing is tightened it tends to open the spring eye making it easy to tighten (and difficult to loosen). Thus two right thread and two left thread bushings at the spring ends. At the frame side they were all right thread because the hole is solid so it didn't matter.
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When the cable is pulled, what happens in there?
When the cable is pulled the bottom of the arm moves toward the front (left). This pushes the upper connecting strut toward the front applying the front brake shoe. Since the arm pivots at the top in the rear brake shoe this motion also pushes the rear brake shoe toward the rear applying it.
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Thanks guys for all the compliments!!! :)
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Thanks Bob. I get it now. The pivot point is up by the horizontal bar and the plate where the cable connects is not 'fixed' to the lower part of the rear shoe.
Shows my utter lack of understanding different style brake systems.
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Finally finished up the rear parking brakes. My rear parking brake cables and linkage are now like a DJ-3A. Thanks to the guys over on the DJ-3A forum I was able to get dimensions for, and fabricate, a "DJ" parking brake lever. This is necessary to give a mechanical advantage to the CJ-3B parking brake cane style pull handle.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b92.jpg)
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Here is more of the story leading up to this project. Off and on for years I had been looking at existing photos of the real X98, trying to figure out how to replicate the unique hood and grill. It has a combination of CJ-3B and CJ-5 characterisitics. I finally decided to go for it and picked up this rough CJ-3B. I'm not a body guy, and I really don't enjoy doing body work, so this was going to be a challenge. First I photographed my "new" CJ-3B from the same angle as an original X98 photo. Using a photo editing program I scaled my CJ-3B to the same size as X98. Then I traced the outline of X98's grill and overlayed it onto the CJ-3B. This allowed me to visualize the changes that were necessary. I was pleased to see that the CJ-3B's 7 slots were the correct height and placement.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b84.jpg)
The top edge of the grill needed to reshaped to be like a CJ-5 grill and the headlights and parking lights relocated. I already had a DJ-5 hood and grill in stock.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b85.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b86.jpg)
Also in my pile of parts I'd been saving the correct style headlights and parking lights for X98. More mockups and planning....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b87.jpg)
Then cut and weld. A thin section of the top edge of the CJ-5 grill was spliced onto the the CJ-3B grill, the center of the top edge of the CJ-3B grill needed to be added because CJ-5 grills don't have that little divot. Then fillers were welded into the headlight holes and parking light holes. The final grill ended up being 7 seperate pieces welded together.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b88.jpg)
Next up was the hood. For some reason I don't have any photos of this. It was way more difficult than the grill, I guess the camera was the last thing on my mind. Except for the front edge, the DJ-5 hood was wrong in almost every aspect. It was too wide and too short at the rear and therefore the sides and most of the top were not even close to correct for X98. I ended up cutting the DJ-5 hood into a T shape to use the front edge and the center raised portion. Even the center raised section was too wide, but changing that is way beyond my limited skill set, so it stayed as is. The rounded front area of the DJ-5 hood had to be rounded further to match the lines of the new narrower but taller X98 hood. This required a lot of metal shrinking. Even the bosses for the hood latches had to be flattened. I removed the rear inner reinforcement and hood hinge from the CJ-3B hood and then welded the DJ-5 cut out T section to the CJ-3B reinforcement/hinge assembly. Now it was a matter of cutting and bending some flat sheet to make up the missing sections of both sides. After it was all welded up there was still days of shrinking metal to force everything into place.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b91.jpg)
Then the final touch was installing one of the CJ-3B embossed side WILLYS pieces into the center/front of the DJ-5 hood section. The hood ended up being made up from 5 seperate pieces welded together.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b90.jpg)
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b89.jpg)
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That's pretty cool Bob! Glad to see that you got it to work. It really does look like a prototype.
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I'm a huge fan of this Willys. I enjoyed the photos and write up on how you did this.
To the X98...It should have been the replacement for the 3A. I wonder how this choice might have influenced later designs.
Tim
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I did not realize until now that the X98 was an actual prototype. Nice work! That hood looks like it was fun to make. ;) :o
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I absolutely love this Jeep. Thanks for posting these extra pics and description. Very tedious work but outstanding result.
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Very nice work.
Of course you realize it's going to confuse a lot of old Willys guys.
It's a CJ-5 . . . no, wait . . . it's a flatfender . . . no, wait it's a . . . wait, what?
:D ;D :D
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Hey guys,
Here are some more rockin' awesome shots of X98 and Bob W kick in' it at Rausch Creek off-road park yesterday. This obstacle is called "Crawler Ridge"
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/2016/RC/D92E9B2B-7AD8-4B5F-9C08-A5B36780F1BB.png)
Here's one of X98 showing off his abs:
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/2016/RC/CE0AFDA9-EFE3-4E2C-9A7F-BAB19AFD08F5.jpg)
... and picking a tire:
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/2016/RC/E3BCD681-0696-4E5A-995C-BBAC9CAE07D0.jpg)
Bob is a great trail boss. I love wheeling with him and X98. Charter members of the Super Stock Willys Club.
(http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq276/jpetrowich/2016/RC/6C3FAAEA-4E51-4872-8E08-6F104E0E3E4C.jpg)
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Thanks for posting the photos of X98 in action :)
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What a treat to finally see the X98 in person. A great looking and performing rig. Having an Ace Pilot behind the wheel doesn't hurt either. Fearless Bob!
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Finally, another step forward. Removed the leaking T-90 transmission and noisy D-18 transfer case.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b93.jpg)
And installed a T-90C and a modified D-18 with 4:1 low range gears.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b94.jpg)
Hopefully this will slow things down in the rough stuff. Not as low as I'd like to go but I wanted to stay with stockish gearboxes.
Edit, the stock crawl ratio was 37:1, now it is 74:1.
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It's about time!
:D
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This is an very interesting developement.
I always figured 75/1 is about where true rock crawling begins.
The T90 C is the lowest geared of the Borg Warner 3 speeds @ 3.339.
The drivetrain strength should be ample behind the Hurricane.
I think you could drive it hard using that combo with little fear of breakage.
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I always figured 75/1 is about where true rock crawling begins.
Depends. 76:1 isn't enough for a JK Unlimited with the 3.6L and 4.10 gears. But you can do just fine in the rocks in a flatty even at 37:1 if you actually have an engine with real bottom end torque. Many ways to skin the cat, some are just more expensive than others.
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I hope to see X98 in action someday. Maybe even drive it and try out those low gears. 8-)
Tim
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X98 owns the Rock Garden on Chinaman Gulch:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JpgQRelRU[/media]
If you google Chinaman Gulch Rock Garden, you will see that this is the hard line. Good job!
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I was honored that Bob W let me drive X98 on a test drive today. I wanted to feel how the low range gears feel in his newly installed T90C tranny. X98 can crawl at a very slow rate when compared to the stock 3A and 3B set up. Watch the video and you will see the advantage this new setup offers.
Thanks again Bob.
Tim
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Thanks Jeff for posting the video!
Tim, it was my pleasure to have you take X98 for a spin :)
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Went wheeling with the big dogs today here in NY.
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b95.jpg)
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Very Good! How did X98 do?
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X98 performed good! It was a fun day of testing out the upper limits of what it could do. As expected X98 can't really compete with rigs running 35" and up tires. That CJ-7 in the photo has 42" tires.
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Where are you at? Private land?
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Yes, private land is the only legal 4 wheeling in NY.
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.... I meant, it's not an offroad park.
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Not a park. Invite only private land.
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That CJ-7 in the photo has 42" tires.
A flat-fender CJ7? I learned something new today!
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A flat-fender CJ7?
My TJ has flat fenders too. Those silly round fenders just crash into rocks and trees!!
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Not a park. Invite only private land.
... oh you mean like one of those swanky country clubs where everyone wears turtle neck sweaters and smokes a pipe?
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Not exactly, although there is one just down the road.
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X98 is dressed for the winter.....
(http://www.cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b96.jpg)
Thanks to jpet I have doors now!!! Where else could you get reproduction doors for an experimental Jeep?
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New name... MPV-X98.
The doors look great! :)
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You are going up Mount Antero? :D
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X98 - Waging the War on Winter.
I noticed you installed the chains on the rear wheels. Some guys insist they work better on the front. Have you ever tried them on the front? If so, any noticeable difference?
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I have not tried them on the front. I think the chains would rub hard on the frame with the wheels turned all the way. When the blade is up there isn't much weight on the rear wheels so they may work better on the front. I'm not sure where the most traction would be with the blade down pushing a big pile of snow???
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... I think the chains would rub hard on the frame with the wheels turned all the way. When the blade is up there isn't much weight on the rear wheels so they may work better on the front. I'm not sure where the most traction would be with the blade down pushing a big pile of snow???
I am about to install the chains on my 3A and had all the same questions. I ran them on the rear last year and they worked well so I'll probably just do that again. I think even if overall traction improved the rubbing on the frame would be a deal breaker.
And fess up Bob, either you have wooden blocks wedged between the frame and front springs or that plow is made of styrofoam. X98 isn't even beginning to squat down under the weight. Wow!
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And fess up Bob, either you have wooden blocks wedged between the frame and front springs or that plow is made of styrofoam. X98 isn't even beginning to squat down under the weight.
X98 just has new replacement springs, nothing else. I kinda wish they would flex a bit more.
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I come across a set of standard 10 leaf replacement Omix Adda springs on a 3B.
I noticed they will hardly flex at all.
With all the weight shifted toward a single front spring it still clears the axle bumper by 1-1/2 inches.
So it's like why bother having axle bumpers ?
Not impressive at all concerning Omix Adda spring flex.
Maybe they will break in with a Yipao load :D
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I was archiving some old videos on my phone and I found this one:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmcFUqgGe0[/media]
.... enjoy!
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How tall is X 98's grill if measured at center of grill ?
Wondering just how much shorter than a 3B or taller than a 3A grill.
Thanks KEN
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The grill measures 20" tall. X98 has all the desirable features, flat fenders, good looking and the power of an F-head engine!!! ;D
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The grill measures 20" tall. X98 has all the desirable features, flat fenders, good looking and the power of an F-head engine!!!� ;D
...and it's human is Bob W. A lucky Willys indeed! 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Hi all,
Thought I’d post some pics of Bob and X98 wheeling in the Catskills:
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/A2CAED60-BC3E-43C6-BF49-4169B275AB85.jpeg)
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/87B49055-0549-44FB-976B-C614E63C55AB.jpeg)
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/EDEE3051-9A8E-4541-AE32-3BD639DF16EE.jpeg)
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/237A1857-4FF3-4631-B014-EE22DA16CC6B.jpeg)
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/1479/1B737C9A-168E-4E08-8C61-8F652DD112E4.jpeg)
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We had a lot of fun wheeling the Catskills when Jpet and Bam Bam stopped by!!!
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I watched the videos over on the other Page.
Very impressive to see where you guys take your jeeps.
I forget what all you have in your rig.
What kinda differentials ?
Are you running T90C 3.339 @ 4.07 x 5.375 in X98 ?
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Currently I have Lock Rights in the front and rear 5.38 geared differentials. It is a T90C with RockEater gears in the model 18 transfer case.
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Another update. I really didn't like the idea of running 10 spline axles while rock crawling. They just don't seem strong enough. Finally got around to to upgrading to 35 spline shafts. Quite a difference....
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b98.jpg)
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b100.jpg)
I also went with 53" WMS to match the front Dana 30 "narrow track" axle and used a high pinion center section to get the driveshaft up further out of harms way.
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b99.jpg)
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b97.jpg)
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35 spline you say. WOW ! What’s the diameter ? So will the high pinion clear everything when fully stuffed ?
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The 35 spline axle shafts have 1.5" diameter. The high pinion fits just fine in the stock location.
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I've been thinking about how low the distributor is on the F-134 engine in relation water splashing due to stream crossings. I decided to make the distributor a bit more splash proof. I picked up a used IAD 4008 (thanks 3-48s), replaced the bushings, installed a Pertronix Ignitor II, resistor plug wires, M-38 style distributor venting and a rubber seal around the distributor cap to body seam. I selected the IAD 4008 because it has the largest spacing between the plug wires of the common Willys distributors. The Pertronix Ignitor II has current limiting, unlike the regular Ignitor, so there is less chance of damage if the key is inadvertently left on. Resistor plug wires are required with the Pertronix units and this also significantly decreased the noise on my CB radio. An inner tube provides the seal between the cap and distributor body. Haven't been near any water yet so I don't know if it actually helps.
(http://cj3a.info/temp/cj3b/cj3b101.jpg)
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The inner tube idea is great! Is that some type water repellant residue under the wire boots?
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Is that some type water repellant residue under the wire boots?
Yes, it is ignition dielectric grease.
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So long as the oil fill tube is sealed I have no serious 134 engine problems until the water hits the fan.
Once the spinning fan hits water level it drenches everything including the oil bath filter.
That’s been my experience every time the creek is too deep and yes it typically kills my ignition system.
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It has been quite a while since I have update this thread!! X98 has seen a few changes. I replaced the Rockeater 4:1 model 18 transfer case gears with jpet 5:1 transfer case gears. See the thread over on The CJ-2A Forum for more information about the gears.
https://www.thecj2apage.com/FORUMS/lower-transfer-case-gears_topic47516.html (https://www.thecj2apage.com/FORUMS/lower-transfer-case-gears_topic47516.html)
Probably the most difficult trail X98 has done to date was Carnage Canyon in Colorado.
https://youtu.be/Gpiy8bIBLwY (https://youtu.be/Gpiy8bIBLwY)
Since then I added power steering and a better approach angle. Here is a look at X98 as it stands today.
https://youtu.be/eDGxGRde9qY (https://youtu.be/eDGxGRde9qY)
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That X98 copy is too cool to be treated like that. lol. What a ride!!!
I too love the X98 look. So much so I "personalized/modified" my DJ3A that I call "My Concept Roadster" trying to 'justify the mods' on a rare model itself. It is still a L-Head. The front grill shape, and hood to conform are its most obvious mods. Pic attached. Unfortunately, project has hibernated since 2016 due to medical issues. Maybe someday I'll get to finish it???