My Willys 3A and 3B Community
Your Projects => Your CJ-3A Project => Topic started by: JeepFever on October 31, 2014, 12:22:35 AM
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I have not named a Jeep before, but thought it might be fun with this one. This '3A lived some of its known life near Hoover Camp in Virginia. (the president's mountain get-away)
Approx 10-12 years ago, a neighbor up the road from me,� stopped and asked if I would be interested in an old Jeep he had. It was previously owned by his deceased great uncle, and nobody else in the family wanted it when he died. This neighbor kept it for 5 years, thinking he might bring it back to life, but decided he would never do anything with it.
The price was good, he gave it to me for free I was not sure what I was going to do with it, but it seemed complete, although rusty and banged up. I moved it to my parents' property (my wife did not want another Jeep setting around, haha)
Fast forward to a couple years ago. . With the kids out of the house, and a little more time, my interest in Jeeps started coming back. I joined "theCJ2Apage" and really got interested. Unfortunately, I got extremely busy at work, and it took until now to finally bring the '3A home and start working on it. Part of that delay also had to do with fact that Hoover did not come with a title. I learned that VA DMV has a "abandoned vehicle" process, and thru this I was able to get a title!
My plans are to make this more of a "preservation" than a "restoration". My '2A is a working/trail Jeep, and I like that "old" feel. This one will stay stock, keeping as many of the original parts as possible. (and removing all of the modifications) to confess before I begin - > I am an amatuer, so the bodywork etc. may not be done using best methods. I learn as I go.
The first 4 photos show Hoover in hibernation, I took these photos on one of my visits to my parents', when I was contemplating bringing it back to life.
The first photo shows the snow plow frame, and massive wooden bumper. I am not sure how this Jeep was used, but it sure has a lot of body damage from running into things.
The original color shows in many places, there is a fairly big patch of the tan under the hood in this photo.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-001.jpg)
A rear view, showing one of the many pop-riveted patches. When I first looked at this, I wondered why someone would replace the taillight with a reflector, but apparently this is how they came from factory. :)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-002.jpg)
I need to find that flip-out vent some day. Tires on front have no tread.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-003.jpg)
The front tires are shot, but this one looks almost brand new. Anyone have 3 Cooper Super Tractions they want to sell? :)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-004.jpg)
On the trailer headed home . . early October
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-005.jpg)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-005b.jpg)
In our driveway . . let the work begin. . . about the only things I have done at this point are remove the junk, and wrap some electrical tape around the steering wheel, to keep my hands from get black everytime I touch it. (I will have to find restoration threads on that later)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-007.jpg)
The wheelhouse has pulled away from quarterpanel, and is badly dented.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-008.jpg)
A view of quarterpanel, with the pop-riveted patch removed.� �I plan to replace some of this, just too badly dented for me to try to straighten.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-009.jpg)
A photo after I cut off the plow frame (it was welded to frame in some places, the bumper is welded also. :( what the heck were they doing with this thing to get it so dented up? :)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-010.jpg)
The floors and hat channels are shot.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-011.jpg)
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(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-012.jpg)
I decided to start with the rear . . had to straighten the frame member to provide something to bolt to.Some dents to pound out of rear quarter. A closer view of that new looking tire. I am starting to experiment with paint, to get something close to original tan. Body is too yellow, but the wheel is starting to get close. Springs are in decent shape.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-013.jpg)
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After removing the tailgate surround piece.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-014.jpg)
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(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-015.jpg)
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The lower portion of the surround was badly dented and rusted,� so I made a new one out of some channel I had in my scrap bin. It was same gauge, and already had the 90 degree bend.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-016.jpg)
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(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-017.jpg)
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(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-018.jpg)
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Homemade valence panel
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-019.jpg)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-020.jpg)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-021.jpg)
I decided it would take way too long to try to repair the rear floor,� if even possible,� so splurged and bought new one from Classic Enterprises� . . here it is just setting in place, to make sure it fits, and lines up with valence etc.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-022.jpg)
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JeepFever that sure does sure look familiar...the patina, the absence of floors...our Jeeps must be brothers. In a way, I like the front bumper (without the log!)...it's like a badge of honor.
I really like seeing the metal work. Awesome.
Good luck and post often.
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Nice work on the valance and surround. What are you using to cut the steel?
Tim
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I like these build threads! What is the serial number of Hoover?
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I did not get much time to work on during the week, but was able to spend some time yesterday.
One of the tasks was removing the toolbox. I always have a hard time finding the spot welds. Even when sanding down the area, it is not always obvious where the welds are. In the series of photos below, it shows an attempt at finding them. It seemed to work well
This shows after sanding. Not real clear where the welds are.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-023a.jpg)
From the inside, I drilled 2 small holes just above the flange of toolbox, (to see from outside where it was) . . drew a line across the holes . . guessed the center of each weld and drew vertical line . . then measured down at each one.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-023b.jpg)
This worked well, all of the welds were cut out.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-023c.jpg)
For removing spotwelds, I always used a regular drill bit, but thought I would try something different. There are various spot welding cutters out there. This one from Harbor Freight seemed to get good reviews, and it is cheap. You have to be careful, sometimes there is no clear indication when you cut thru the first panel, and you might cut thru both. . . . it the photo above, you can see where I went too far on the righthand holes.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-023d.jpg)
Off the subject of spotwelds, but looking at photos above - > the layers of paint can be seen . . from outside in - > the test tan I painted, white, green, original tan?, original primer? . . my question is if the factory primer would have been red-oxide I see that, and the tan, in many place on Hoover.
The front of wheelhouse. I have a question here. Should the area where I marked 1.25 be flat? It is not obvious in the photo, but mine is dented down right in that area. I plan to replace that area with a flat piece from the top line to bottom line
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-024.jpg)
3A quiz - > what is the purpose of this bracket? (I actually know, because I read about it previously, but it had be baffled for a while, haha)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-025.jpg)
Some views of floor currently. I had no idea when I started that I was going to replace so much. I had originally planned to repair the riser, but felt it might be easier, and better to replace it.
Hawk, you asked about tools I use to cut. They happen to show in this photo,� a plasma torch, and thin wheel on 4.5 grinder.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-026.jpg)
If you are wondering about the jack between springs and frame,� I am using it to get the frame level. My plan is to get the frame level at all corners, then I am using a laser level to make sure the body is parallel at all the various places.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-027.jpg)
Test fit of the replacement riser
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-028.jpg)
I made the riser from a piece of scrap-bin channel. It was too wide, so I split it down the middle and welded back together at proper width. It is .110 steel, so quite a bit stiffer than the original.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-030.jpg)
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�3A quiz - > what is the purpose of this bracket?
That is the "downspout" for the tool box lid gutter.
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The mystery bracket is, of course, the drain channel for the water that would be captured by the new and innovative gutter around the 3A tool box.� Funny though, it didn't seem to help save the floors in either 3A I've messed with.
I've found another effective weld cutter is the Dewalt drill bits.� Very similar design to the spot weld cutter.
The front of the wheel house looks like this.� It has a lip on the front that hangs over, and is welded to the riser....
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/image_zpsb7ab6f0c.jpg)
This is a photo of my effort to change a 2A wheel house into a 3A wheel house.
You're making some good progress.� Looks real good.� I wish I had a scrap bin of steel.� Would have sped up the process a bit.
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I like these build threads! What is the serial number of Hoover?
I like watching them also . . now I am living one. . I have a whole new respect for those who have gone before. ;D . . these projects take a lot of thought and time!
Serial number is 451GB115947
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What have I got myself into ?? . . the only thing left of front floor is the tranny hump. Even that is thin at the bottom
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-031.jpg)
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I was hoping to be able to attach the hat-channel assembly to frame as a foundation for the floor, but realize now that part of the hat channel is attached to the cowl bracket.
I assume that I am going to have to unbolt the body from frame, and maybe even remove the fenders in order to cut off and replace this piece of hat-channel ?
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-032.jpg)
When I get some time, I will post more photos of progress.
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Ok. I am taking a lot of notes on this. Some major body work as well as some front floors and needed on my Heep also.
Is it simpler to do this floor work with the tub on the Frame or is it simpler to remove the tub and then put it all back together?
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Boy is this like deja vu all over again....
You will probably have to at least remove the two front body mounting bolts on either side of the frame, to allow access to the front part of the hat channel..
It seems to me that the hat is only welded in a few places and s a chisel or something similar will take them off the cowl bracket.
Some choose to leave the body on the frame as sort of an assembly jig, to make sure everything is aligned when the time comes to bolt it back together...
Tim (athawk11) separated his tub into two pieces, at the floor riser I believe, repaired each section allowing a little overlap where the floors attach to the riser, and then assembled the tub using the frame as a jig...
you will probably need to remove the fenders....The two center bolts that hold the fender support to the frame thread into the frame so give them a good soak with PB or aerokroil before you try to remove them...
This is how I did mine.....I was in a "patch this and patch that" mode for a long time before I realized that it just wasn't working for me....
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Ok. I am taking a lot of notes on this. Some major body work as well as some front floors and needed on my Heep also.
Is it simpler to do this floor work with the tub on the Frame or is it simpler to remove the tub and then put it all back together?
Since this is my first repair of this magnitude, I am not sure which is easier. Others might have some ideas. In the case of this tub, it was so rusty that I am not sure what would have happened if it had been removed first. Once I unbolted from frame, it was very flimsy.
I was thinking I could leave the cowling bolted to the frame, then rebuild back to front, the frame would be the �fixture� to ensure that everything was straight and would fit. I did not notice that the floor hat-channels were attached to the cowling until now.
I think this will be my method ->
-unbolt the rear of body, (done)
- repair/replace from rear valence to riser (done)
- loosely bolt down the rear, and unbolt the cowling (may have to remove fenders to cut hat from cowl)
- replace hat channels, and bolt to frame
- replace the floor sheet metal
- remove body, (now structurally sound), finish welding and patching
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Boy is this like deja vu all over again....
I can see why . . ;D
It was funny, after sending my last reply, the page opened, and I thought "I don't remember posting a photo of when I set the new hat channel in place" then I realized that was not my photo. . . . looks very similar though !!
Thanks, 1955CJ-5 for photo and advice . . one thing I have been doing since Jeep came in garage is to spray bolts with penetrating oil occasionally.
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My first 3A tub was more sound than yours, so my approach was to take it all the way off and stand the whole thing on edge.� You could still do this, but you would want to screw some additional bracing to the tub so it stays square.� I few well placed 2x4s would do the trick.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/tubundersidesheetmetal20101231.jpg)
As Randy mentioned,� my second tub was disassembled and put back together using the frame as a guide.� This required the removal and installation of the tub a number of times as I replaced the damage.� My helper was my wife.� She was always a good sport about it.
The hat channels are the challenge.� To properly secure them to the new floor pans, you almost have to take the tub off�. Unless you like to weld upside down.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130624022_zpsd9875d5a.jpg)
I clamped and bolted the channel pieces together on the frame.� I set the tub on top of them to align everything.� I then took the tub off, temp welded the channels in to the correct position.� I finished welding the channel assembly back together, bolted it back to the frame, set the tub back on, clamped the channels to the tub, flipped it all over and plug welded the heck out of it.� It seems like a lot of work, but this tub was a disaster.� I didn�t have a very good starting point, so I had to make sure it would all fit back together properly.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130624030_zps4d67b191.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130624014_zps0c61363a.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130624004_zps750221a7.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130624008_zps1ab70304.jpg)
Sorry to clog up you rebuild page with a bunch of my photos.� I guess I could have just linked to my build thread.� If you prefer, I can delete them.� Let me know.
Tim
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Sorry to clog up you rebuild page with a bunch of my photos.� I guess I could have just linked to my build thread.� If you prefer, I can delete them.� Let me know.
Tim
Definately leave them . . that is what these threads are about, to learn from each other. . that was a great extract of your full thread.
Randy, I just skimmed thru your "too rusty" thread, lots of good stuff there.
It is amazing how much more sense these earlier threads make after we have been attempting the same thing.
Well, I spent too much time reading , and lost some time in the garage. ;D . . but I think I am going to head out there now to see if the rusty bolts will cooperate, (the fenders and cowl).
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to see if the rusty bolts will cooperate
Be gentle...talk nice to them and maybe they will back out for you!
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Progress update - >� � Hoover now has no fenders or windshield attached.� �This was painless compared to what I was expecting . .� maybe the penetrating oil helped,� because all the bolts came out intact.
The small screws and bolts holding the regulator and wiring harness etc. gave more problems than the big bolts.� I was not talking too nice to them.� ;)
Removing the remaining pieces of hat-channel from the cowl bracket was easier than expected also.� �There was only one weld across the front.
View of front floor with the hat-channel assembly laid in to check for fit.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-033.jpg)
Mine appears to� have interference at the cowl end,� both driver and passenger sides.� The Classic Enterprises replacements have wider flanges.� � This should be easy to modify,� but I am wondering if others ran into same issue.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-034.jpg)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-035.jpg)
Bottom view showing difference between stock and replacement.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-036.jpg)
Top view showing extra flat plate.� �What purpose does this serve?� �Should I plan on adding one to the hat-channel assembly?
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-037.jpg)
Also this shows where the weld was cut on the old hat channel,� just that line across the front.� �I was dreading removing a bunch of spot welds,� �but there were none !! :)
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My hat channel set from CE also had a wide flange at the front, and needed to be trimmed.
I'm not sure why there is a plate on top of the hat in that front area under the cowl support...maybe to keep the hat from spreading over time? I added a plate also...figured it was there for a reason.....
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I was just looking at your pictures and I remembered something that I should have done...
Cover your gauges and keep your windshield covered if you are using your 4 1/2" grinder to cut away the old steel...the hot bits of steel can stick to the glass and mess things up...I was able to remove most with a single edged razor blade but it would have been better if i had covered the gauges....
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Wonderful thread, awesome work THANKS!
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No photos available right now but will post some later.
I have a couple questions:
1) how much clearance should there be between the top of transfercase and the floor?
2) how thick should the "body spacers" be?� (rubber pieces at the bolt mounting spots,� between hat channels and frame)� I have been using some 1/4" thick ones for mock up.
Reason for the questions - > I having difficulty getting floor level worked out.� �If I line up tranny-tunnel flat back to the riser,� �the floor rests on the transfer case.��
Hard explain with words, but in the reposted photo below,� the floor/hump is setting on the t-case.� If we draw a line from the PTO coverplate, straight to the riser hump,� it lines up perfectly,� but don't want to build like this, obviously.�(floor touching tcase) �
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-033.jpg)
I can figure something out,� but just wondering what it "should" be.
A few options:
1) increase the height of the "relief in the homemade riser. (thankfully only tack-welded at this point)� � I have checked many times to confirm that it is same dimension as old riser,� so fairly sure that is stock.� (although measuring the old rusty one can be a challenge.)� . . actually just thought of this, - > another reason I think the cutout in riser is correct, is because the rear of toolbox seems line up with the cutout.
2) use thicker body spacers
3) put a "bow" in the tranny hump,� front to back.
Sorry for all words,� hope this makes sense.� �I am stalled until I can get this figured out.
:-/
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NOT MINE !! I found this on Tumbleweed's thread.
What a great view of a nice original tub, now if I can just replace all my "air" with "steel" to look something like this.
(http://www.cj3apage.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/IMG_2215.JPG)
I thought I would add this to my thread, (similar to the ones that Randy and Tim posted), now I can easily refer back to it.
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You might want to research the factory dimension from the seam under the hood hinge to the frame and from the top of the tub in back to the top of the rear crossmember . Set your tub on the frame at a height that matches those dimensions...Take a look at the rear body mounts near the taillights, and also the toeboard gusset to see if it looks as if they have sagged...Judging by the rot in your floor I wouldn't expect either to be at the correct height by now.
I am not near my 3A right now to give you measurements, but perhaps one of the fine gentlemen here with an original decent jeep could give us some measurements..
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I would agree with Bill.� Based on my measurement, even a little sag will have the floor resting on the TC.�
From the underside of the PTO cover to the top of the TC, I measure 1/2".� The rolled edge of the PTO port hole reduces this measurement to about 3/8".� Most of my tub mounts are between 1/4" to 5/16".� (Old 6 ply tire side wall cut to size).
Whether this is standard, I can't say, but you won't want the floor touching the TC.� I have read that the vibration of the TC can really make some noise when in contact with the tub.� The tub will act like a big reverberating bell.� :)
Tim
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Thanks guys . . things are looking better now.
I am not sure I understand how measurements at the ends of the tub come into play, because the riser would basically removing any of the "sag".� �I checked again today,� and my homemade riser has exactly the same dimensions as old riser.
It was reassuring to know that the clearance at the tcase was going to be small.
After measuring the risers,� I made sure the frame was level at all 4 corners (some adjustment was necessary), and made sure I had 1/4" spacers at all mounting locations (and that the body was pulled down to them).
Good news is that now the floor/hump with 1/4" spacer on top of Tcase (blue circle) seems to line up with the riser!� (red circle) :)
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Have not been getting out to garage much this week after work,� �but here are some photos from past weekend.
Starting to test fit the tailgate surround.� Homemade lower piece,� and original side piece.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-040.jpg)
This shows the tailgate surround partially welded in.� .� I drilled holes in the surround and plug-welded from outside,� not sure if this is standard practice, but once ground and painted nobody will ever know.� :)
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-042.jpg)
The views above and below show how I am using a laser level to get things in proper locations.� There is a laser �datum plane� running down the center of Jeep.
�
- Measurements can be made side-to-side.� The body width is supposed to be a little over 57�,� tailgate opening is 36� etc.
- the height of the level can be changed to make sure various edges and surfaces are parallel to the ground.� In the example above, a line is visible just below the wheelhouse tops.� (also the tailgate chain brackets are parallel to the ground,� very important,� ;D)
A closer view of the center line on tape measure.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-043.jpg)
Another view of the tailgate surround, there is more welding to do,� there are still some of the temporary screws in place . . .� view also shows the ratchet strap used for pulling the sides in to proper dimension.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-044.jpg)
"Before" photo of the driver wheelhouse and the side brace.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-046.jpg)
Outside view,� with some marking of where to cut� . . fuel opening is removed
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-047.jpg)
The method I used for fitting the replacement metal is to first rough cut the patch, and place behind the side panel
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-048.jpg)
Then cut both panels at same time� . . this creates a patch panel that just fits inside the opening,� not a lot of trial and error fitting.� There is a nice even gap,� for welding.
I elected to keep the original wheelwell curve,� I want to keep the dented uneven �character�,� haha
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-049.jpg)
Tack welded . . still need to cut out the fuel opening.� �My patch material is a little rusty,� should give the primer some �bite�.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-050.jpg)
The patch for front of wheelhouse, tacked in.� �Also, the support bracket temporarily mounted with screws,� I did not want to weld until I was sure that is proper location
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-051.jpg)
Like I mentioned earlier,� not getting a lot of time during week,� but hopefully get some time this weekend.�
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If I ever tackle another one of these I'm going to get a plasma cutter....that is very cool......
And screws to hold parts in place....what a great idea...!
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JeepFever,
I like your patching style. When done neatly like that it shows pure utility which definitely fits the whole early CJ vibe.
Good luck! Hope you can carve out some time to keep on going.
Dave
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If I ever tackle another one of these I'm going to get a plasma cutter....that is very cool......
And screws to hold parts in place....what a great idea...!
Randy, plasma cutters are ultra cool! My local NAPA ran a special on them last year and I picked up a small Thermal Dynamics model. WOW!! I wish I had it when I was doing body work on my 3A! Talk about "point and shoot" cutting... Now I can't wait to start on my '47 Willys truck!
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Got some work done on the driver's side
The rear section, finished cutting out the fuel exit, and made a piece to replace the rot on the bottom.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-052.jpg)
Cut out the rot from front
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-053.jpg)
Positioning the repair panel.� My plan was to show the cutting process, but I forgot to take photos of the progression.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-054.jpg)
Repair after� �
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-055.jpg)
The side at end-of-day on Friday.� . .� I realized after welding in the patch that I forgot the drain hole. :(� �� I will have to cut and form that in place.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-056.jpg)
An attempt at a "artsy" photo.� �I left the flood light on passenger side turned on,� hoping to keep the garage a little warm.� � (calling for low 20 degree temps at night) . .� �I looked in the door as I closed it,� �and thought "that would be a cool photo".� �It did not turn quite as nice as I envisioned,� but still kinda ok.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-057.jpg)
It is going to be cold in garage Saturday,� but hope I can got out there some.
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Your repairs are looking great.� I'll be interested to see how the drain hole turns out.� I wasn't sure how to pull that off.� I cut the old one out and reused it.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20130602011_zps0ff87530.jpg)
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Thanks . .
I remembered seeing you did that. . . on mine, the drivers-side was gone . . . did some work on passenger side today, fortunately that one is still intact, don't have to fool with it, plus it gives me dimensions to follow.
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I found that it was really difficult to get that curved lip.....but I'm sure there is a way to do it with the right tools.....mine are just straight cut....
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I was thinking of trying some kind of "hammer form" method - > making a "die" to put behind the sheetmetal, and hammer the shape.� . . . never did anything like that,� so don't have a clue whether it would work or not . .� it would have been easier if the panel was not already attached. ;D
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-058.jpg)
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I envision some sort of hydraulic C clamp squeezing the sheetmetal between dies, but it would take a bunch of work to do it that way. If you've seen Jpet's thread on installing frame rivets you'll see the sort of tool he made to do that task. Doing it by hand you might be able to use a simple die set with 2-3 strong fine thread bolts to pull it together. It might take two stages of dies. Definitely practice on some scrap pieces before you attempt the tub...You'll have to experiment with what size hole you will need at each end of the slot, and how wide to make the slot before you form it. Lowenuf on the 2A page was selling a premade repair patch for the drains at one time...
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I've been thinking about that darn drain hole. It's not keeping me up at night, but close.
With the tools I have, I thought about how I might pull this off.
-Cut the diameters with an appropriate hole saw.
-Slice out the middle with a grinding wheel.
-Cut a long 3/16" wide piece of steel for the flange. Weld it on, then grind smooth.
Just throwing ideas. :-/
Tim
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Starting on passenger side
Before:
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-060.jpg)
Rough cut patch . . the rolled lip at bottom is formed in (I used a vise, and hammer) . .� this bottom lip is lined up using laser,� then clamped.� . .� the intended cut is marked in chalk.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-061.jpg)
After making the cut
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-062.jpg)
The patch panel unclamped.� The cut went thru both layers.� . .� the ends were done with thin wheel on grinder.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-063.jpg)
A little wiggling, and the rotted piece drops off.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-064.jpg)
Repair panel tacked in place
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-065.jpg)
What should this corner look like?� (behind the drain hole).� �I need to look for a photo of good condition original.� I am not sure how to fold or cut the front panel.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-067.jpg)
Another question� . . . what color is the stock primer?� I have found these layers in several places,� but not sure if original .� . .� outside to steel - > test tan, white, green, original tan?, original primer?,� looks like dark red-oxide
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-068.jpg)
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I envision some sort of hydraulic C clamp squeezing the sheetmetal between dies, but it would take a bunch of work to do it that way. If you've seen Jpet's thread on installing frame rivets you'll see the sort of tool he made to do that task. Doing it by hand you might be able to use a simple die set with 2-3 strong fine thread bolts to pull it together. It might take two stages of dies.� Definitely practice on some scrap pieces before you attempt the tub...You'll have to experiment with what size hole you will need at each end of the slot, and how wide to make the slot before you form it. Lowenuf on the 2A page was selling a premade repair patch for the drains at one time...
It would be fun to try to do it right,� I need to move faster than that though,� >:(� �:'(
I remembered seeing that someone was selling them,� but could not remember where. . . if I botch this up, I might be contacting Lowe. ;D
With the tools I have, I thought about how I might pull this off.
My first thought was to cut out the smaller oval (shown in a photo above),� then make about 4-5 cuts in the radius ends,� bend the tabs in,� weld the gaps,� and grind to shape,� as you mention.
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I was thinking of trying some kind of "hammer form" method - > making a "die" to put behind the sheetmetal, and hammer the shape.� . . . never did anything like that,� so don't have a clue whether it would work or not . .� it would have been easier if the panel was not already attached. ;D
I tried something like that...but my form was too soft and I just used a ball-peen hammer to form the metal. It looked the part from a distance but it was a little too rough to use...
If you could use a steel form to indent the metal and then shave the raised part off the back...but you would need a pretty good press for that....
Adding a strip as Tim mentioned and then grinding to size might be the best bet now that the panel is installed...
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I was not planning to fool with this drain hole right now,� but thought it might be a good idea while we were talking about it.
�
I gave myself 1 hour to make an attempt,� to avoid using a bunch of time when I should be working on the floors.� haha
My first thought was to use a piece of hard maple as a "hammer form",� and maybe fasten it to the inside,� with screws from the outside.� �I figured wood would be easy to shape.
Then I came across a piece of 1/2 steel with some holes in it.� �I have been wondering how the plasma cutter would do with 1/2" steel (its advertised max),� so decided to try to cut out a form.� �Photo below is the starting point.� �(well not the starting point, but photo is after a V-notch was cut for clearance from the vertical brace)
� �
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-069.jpg)
The cutter did fine on the V-notch,� so decided to proceed with cutting the oval.� �Below is photo with the form after cutting,� �plus the other tools used.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-070.jpg)
The center was cut out� . .� starting with 2 holes.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-071.jpg)
The form was clamped to inside.� �I was not sure this would be secure enough,� but it seemed� to work fine.� �� Started by tapping with 1/2" ball-peen,� �the switched to smaller body hammer.� �The lips were still not formed enough,� so the wedge was used to force the opening wider.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-072.jpg)
The inside does not look perfect,� �but for this build is fine.� �If I decide to later,� but might try to make the inside radius a little smaller to look more stock.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-073.jpg)
From the outside,� I am very happy with the results.
(http://www.mywillyspics.com/images/2017/11/07/CJ3A-H-074.jpg)
It ended up taking over 1.5 hours,� but I wasted a lot of time,� at least 20 minutes of that was grinding and fitting that V-notch.� �I am glad I did it.� �One more task done.
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I tried something like that...but my form was too soft
I am glad I ended up using steel, instead of my original plan to use hard maple or oak. :)
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I'm getting a plasma cutter for sure next time!
Steel is the way to go....
Nice work....
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A few steps forward, then one step backwards >:(
As I was working on measuring for hat-channels and floor, things just did not seem right on one side. . . finally found that the passenger side-panel was setting low . . by over 1/2" !!!! (the rear floor, and inside of wheelhouse was fine, but the outside was too low)
I had to cut out the entire patch at front of wheelhouse, and various spot welds in other patches. . . basically lost a day of work.
Oh well, live and learn - > measure everything, and then measure again before welding too much.
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This is the M2C1 rules!
You should measure 2 times and cut 1 time. ;D
There is also other variant of that rules
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This is the M2C1 rules!
You should measure 2 times and cut 1 time.� ;D
There is also other variant of that rules
You are exactly right!
My problem was that I did not measure everything. Kinda hard to explain, but I was making some assumptions. . . In my case the outside skin was sagging in the middle. The fact that the quarterpanel is so banged up, and other factors had me fooled.
I am not taking any photos of the screw-up. ;D
Man, it is COLD out there this evening. I don't have any heat in that side of garage.
Just got a package today. :) I decided to order the M38 removeable floor plates from Walck's. Now to see how they fit. They go a lot higher than I expected under the dash. I might modify that one piece, and not cut so high.
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A quick update . .� many hours have been spent,� but the progress is slow.�� :-[
Here is photo of floor panels in test fit.� �I am using screws until everything lines up,� then will start to spot weld.� �. .� �It is tough trying to get everything in place,� when all I have to measure to is "air" and bent rusty metal.� �
The gray piece of metal is cut out of a piece of shelving.� I ran out of the raw sheet metal.� � It is .075 thick,� not sure what ga. that would be,� but it is stiff to work with,� should make a sturdy floor.� haha
� ��
(http://www.cj3apage.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/CJ3A-075.jpg)
This is what's left of the tranny tunnel after cutting it out.� �I will be replacing with Walck's M38 removeable panels.� . .� the gas pedal is not attached in photo,� (if it looks a little out of place).� . .� you can see where a PO had cut the tunnel behind the tcase levers,� I assume to make it easier to remove something.� �Those stock holes are too small !!� ;)
(http://www.cj3apage.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/CJ3A-076.jpg)
I decided to bolt the old tunnel to the back of the new plate while fitting it.� �This way I can make sure all the holes line up.� �I plan to one day put PTO on Hoover,� so want that hole to line up also.
This photo makes it look so easy,� �just set it in place,� but it took me a LONG time to get everything lined up.� �. .� again,� it is temporarily fastened with screws,� �I still need to fabricate the rear tunnel before I start welding.
(http://www.cj3apage.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/CJ3A-077.jpg)
View from the other side.� . .� � for anyone familiar with the M38 panels - >� the upper one actually extends much further up behind the dash.� �I cut 4-5" off,� to be able to keep the stock dash bracket.� � I am not sure why we would want the cowling to be cut up that high.� �I might find out later,� but for now this might look a "liitle" more stock,� and not weaken the tub as much.
I just noticed looking at photo . . you can see my footprint from where I was standing on the back flange, and pulling the top back, trying to get it to fit. ;D
(http://www.cj3apage.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/CJ3A-078.jpg)
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Nice work!!!
It probably doesn't matter but the M-38 floor had one more small removable panel around the top side of the steering column.
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Just imagine how many hours would have been saved, blood not lost, and foul language not dispensed if every 3A had rolled off the line outfitted with panels like yours has now.
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I'm with Ryan...the CJ-5 has those panels and it makes access a breeze compared to a stock 3a.
Is that a(brass?)door knob on your low-range shift lever?
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BobW:� �Thanks!
Ryan: You are right!�
Is that a(brass?)door knob on your low-range shift lever?
Very observant!!� ;D� �. .� I had noticed earlier that the knob appeared to be non-stock,� but did not have a clue it was a brass door knob� ;D� �. .� �today, I removed it,� and sure enough - >� the "hole" is square,�� �so someone must have forced onto the shaft , forming an internal thread in the process.
In addition -> the tranny shifter knob might be the matching door knob from other side.� :-/ it is metallic (brass?) also.
I might just leave these knobs as-is. . . to preserve the history of Hoover. ;D
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This week's progress . .
- all the test-fit floor panels were unbolted
- center hat-channel welded in
- hat-channels given another coat of "truck bed liner"
(maybe not the ultimate coating, but seems to stick well)
- tranny tunnel fabricated and spot-welded in
- started spot-welding the floor
Tomorrow I hope to finish spot-welding the floor.
Unfortunately, Hoover has to give up his position in the garage, so progress will be much slower for a few weeks.
Before and after photos:
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Changing gears (pun intended)
To make it easier to get the M38 floor panels in place, (over and over while test fitting) I decided to remove the tranny cover and shift lever. . . I was also curious about the internal condition of the tranny.
I was happy with what I found. . . Some occasional surface rust, but the sychro teeth look decent (I think)
Any thoughts on condition?
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I think one of the toughest parts of rebuilding the transmission in my 3A was determining the condition of the components. It doesn't take much visually obvious wear to have an impact on slop or jumping out of second gear.
The chevrons on your second gear and synchro assembly look pretty worn down to me. Depending on the time, money, and ambition you have now might be the time to freshen up the transmission. NOS second gear parts are still available on eBay and a few vendors. Bearings, seals, and general overhaul kits are available just about anywhere but some are better than others.
Here's some pics that might help you.
Old second gear. Notice the chips and wear on the chevrons.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/DSCN1429_zpsce27a51d.jpg)
NOS second gear from Brent Mullins.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/DSCN1428_zpsba6b43e1.jpg)
Side by side comparison. NOS on left, old one on right.
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/DSCN1424_zps89fc8086.jpg)
USA made synchro assembly as found on eBay
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/DSCN1433_zpsfcf2e167.jpg)
Reassembled with all the new goodies:
(http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z403/rmurdock2121/1952%20M38/DSCN1442_zps3b98f2a2.jpg)
Now would be the easiest time to overhaul the tranny but, hey, if not, you'll have those handy removable floor panels so pulling it out any time later on should be a breeze� :D
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Thanks Ryan, some good info there.
I plan to open up the tranny and tcase to check for condition at some point. Makes sense to do now while easy to get to.
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A couple photos . . I mainly took these to send to my sister . . .� �she was there when I hauled Hoover away from our parents' property a couple months ago.� � She thought I was crazy to take on such a project,� haha
edit: I just noticed the carton behind my pile of rust . . kinda appropriate. ;D
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Your tub is turning out nicely.� I remember taking a similar photo of the pile of rusty metal removed from the tub.� It's kind of fun to look back at those.
Ryan showed you some 2nd gear wear.� I'll show you some clutch hub wear....
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/3321f8fa4cfc0dc9a1dc22cd4e1b2c65_zpsd56fe8f9.jpg)
In your photo, it looks like the chevrons on the clutch hub may be a bit chewed up, like mine.� I removed the tranny multiple times and replaced multiple parts until it no longer jumped out of 2nd gear.� Adding a shim and replacing this part finally gave me joy.
Tim
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Wow, where have the months gone? I got a couple ball-peen hammers as birthday present this weekend. The combination of that, warm weather, and '3A withdrawl, I decided to tinker on a small project - > knocking some dents out of front fenders.
With hammer and dolly, got it to basic shape, but still has a crease. I was afraid to hammer too much more, and stretch it. Will it take heat to remove the crease?
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wow! you've done an excellent job! congratulations!
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wow!� you've done an excellent job!� congratulations!
Thanks! . . . I wonder sometimes why I would start with something so far gone, but on the other hand, it is satisfying to know I am saving it from the scrap yard. :)
Something I noticed while fooling with the fenders. It baffles me how the floors/hat-channels can be so rotten, but the fender "hat-channel" brackets can be in such good shape. Even the wood is solid.
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I don't know for sure, but the fender brace seems like it was made from heavier gauge steel. But that wouldn't explain the good condition of the wood.
On my current project, the braces are in fairly decent condition, but the wood was gone. :D
Tim
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Hoover has been neglected for several months now,� but I am hoping to get in a few hours each week,� to make a little progress at a time.
This past weekend I was able to get some work done on fenders . .
Photos show "before"� (well, actually after some work done)
The passenger fender will need metal replacement at the rear.� Both need numerous cracks welded,� and the driver side has a very wavy top.� �I was tempted to slap some bondo on there after welding in a patch to replace rust section,� but instead will try to get it as straight as I can with dolly and shrinking.� (never knew anthing about those two methods until this year.� ;D)
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Why are PO's so evil to the fenders?? You have a few challenges, but looking back on your build, you'll make them look like new!
On my first 3A, I finally punted. I cut the old tops out and replaced the skin with new 16 gauge steel. I just couldn't get them to look flat. That darn brace was messing with me.
Tim
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Why are PO's so evil to the fenders??� You have a few challenges, but looking back on your build, you'll make them look like new!
On my first 3A, I finally punted.� I cut the old tops out and replaced the skin with new 16 gauge steel.� I just couldn't get them to look flat.� That darn brace was messing with me.
Tim
I think I mentioned earlier in thread, this Jeep looked like it was run in a demolition derby. Some of the dents were crazy deep and deformed. . . my first plan was to cut the tops out and replace with new metal, but then thought I could use this as learning experience. I have always been a "weld it up, knock it close with hammer, and cover with bondo" bodyman. :-[ . . I want to try to improve on that.
It is looking better since these photos were taken. The radius on the edge is close to original, front to back. I still have some dents to get out on top. I was fooling with torch shrinking, but I think I am too heavy handed. I ordered a shrinking disk, and will try that next.
All else fails, back to plan A, cut it all out and put a flat piece in. ;D
Actually for this build, I am not planning perfection, a few dents and deformities will add a little "character" :)
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I have had so little time to work on Hoover. :( . . . most likely I am going to give up on trying to "hammer" the fender to straightness. Probably going to cut it out, and replace with new straight metal.
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With the fender setting in corner, I switched attention to windshield frame. Glass and attachments have been removed . . most of extra layers of paint are removed.
This progress has been made an hour at a time over past few weeks.
Question -> any suggestions on straightening the channel for top? I am thinking maybe some kind of "L" bracket on a slide hammer?
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Hoover has been neglected for too long!
Today was an amazingly nice weather day for December, and I pulled the tarp off of Hoover . . (to remember what it looked like. ;D ) .. then, could not help myself, and decided to make somekind of progress today.
The worst looking area was the passenger rear corner, so that was my goal. I was planning to use 18ga, because that seemed to be the original, but only had a piece of 16ga large enough. . . Wow, what a pain! I am amatuer, so there might have been easier method, but it was tough to make a consistent curve on the corner.
For the 90deg flange I used the trusty 2 angle-irons clamped to workbench with big C-clamps . . that went great . . . it was the corner that was a pain. Using a rubber dead-blow hammer -> I tried forming around a 2.5" dia solid steel slug, and a 3" diameter tubing, but got mixed results. In the end I used some probably unconventional methods, but got reasonably close. :-[
I will make sure radius at bottom and top are correct, (when welding the flanges) plus it will be pulled tight to the spare-tire bracket in middle. This should ensure correct radius, when done.
Some before and after photos:
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Obviously, I still have a ways to go, but ran out of time.
Mine was completely rusted out behind the bracket for soft-top, so I have to replace all the way to top.
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Today's progress, some work on passenger-side fender.
This fender was oddly in very good shape in some places, but rusted badly where it attached to body. The photos below show the patches needed to replace missing or very thin metal.
Note the use of magnets from PC hard-drive to hold one of the replacement pieces. ;D
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That rear corner curve is pretty tough to reproduce. Nice work!
Tim
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Looking back on the build it's almost as someone actually tried to kill the little beast but it fought back to live another day. Keep up the good work!
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You got drive and stamina. Just don't skim it with bondo, use fine cut fiberglass filler. It's water resistant and stronger. John
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You got drive and stamina. Just don't skim it with bondo, use fine cut fiberglass filler. It's water resistant and stronger. John
Thanks . . I have been using the fine cut fiberglass in place of plain bondo in some previous projects, and was planning to use it for this.
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Some more nice weather, so pulled the tarp off again, then got the fever and even rolled it to the garage.
Got some patches welded in various places. Also got the "bulge" out of top of passenger fender. I had never heard of "shrinking" of metal before, but it worked very well. . . before I started, the flat part of fender was bowed up, and would "oil-can" when pushing down on it. After the shrinking, it is relatively flat. You can see the blue "burn" marks on top of fender where I hit it with shrinking disk, and a water-soaked towel.
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Looking good!
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Hoover is in the garage, and I have been spending a couple hours a day on cutting, grinding, and welding . . . today, for a little change of pace, I decided to try to pull out the driver-side quarter panel. . . it has been bugging me to look at it.
First and second photo show how "concave" the panel was. (some of the "demolition-derby" damage caused by PO)
Third photo shows my method for pulling it out . . . a couple 2x4's to spread load, angle iron to bridge the damage, and some C-clamps to pull the panel out past where it should be.
It worked fairly well . . my plan is to dolly and "shrink" it back to flat. . . stay tuned, hopefully the plan works. :)
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Some of this past weekend's progress, mainly the passenger side quarter. I was a little concerened about getting this on straight, but it worked out ok.
photo1 - started by clamping the joint on inside, also visible in this photo is the sparetire brace from Classic Enterprises, I figured there was no way I was going to be able to fabricate anything even close to original, so "splurged" and bought this piece :), the same time I got rear floor. It is very nice, and really helped to make sure the panel went where it was supposed to.
Photo2 - tack welded the joint, I will eventually grind those out once the "spot welds" are done inside the fender.
not shown in photos: the inner brace was primed and painted, then attached with screws to the wheel well
phot03 - attached quarter panel to inner brace with screws, working from back to front, pulling tight to radius, not shown in photos - > but next was to cut thru both the new panel and tub, along the red line.
photo4 - finished matching panel to tub, and tacked it up
photo5 - "spot welded" thru the screw holes to the inner brace, and to top of wheel housing
I am very happy with how it turned out. The metal seemed thicker that original, but that means it should be very sturdy for spare tire.
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That turned out really nice.
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Moving up the side to toe gusset area.
1) cut out the rust
2) & 3) made a template using aluminum flashing
4) flattened out the shape
5) traced the pattern on 16 ga
6) cut out
7) bent to shape
(I saw a tip on TV to use body spoon to eliminate hammer marks, worked pretty good, not that it matter on this piece :))
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I like the aluminum flashing idea. I usually use cardboard, which never seems to come out quite right.
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I like the aluminum flashing idea. I usually use cardboard, which never seems to come out quite right.
I have always used cardboard also,� but could not find any thin stuff, . . .� �then got the idea of using flashing.�
it will be my future choice,� if "folding" is necessary.
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Toe gusset piece . .� ready to weld in
Those tabs did not end up exactly oem, but only the experts will notice difference. :-)
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We can not have too many clamps when doing tub repair. :-)
A couple long-reach Vise-grips,� pulling the newly welded toe gusset,� to be flush with side panel . . prior to attaching to the floor.
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Toe gusset patch weld in . . inside view.
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Anybody know where I could find photo showing what oem tub looks like (from bottom) in these 2 areas?
This build is FAR from a "restoration",� but I would like to keep as close to looking original as possible.
I did some searching, but could not find any "close up" photos
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I did some more searching at lunchtime. I found several photos of tubs from bottom, but nothing that was "close-up" enough to see detail. (zoomed-in was blurry)
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My wife is out of town, so I could spend the whole afternoon/evening after work, tinkering with the Jeep. :)
Most progress was on floor. Other than a few touch-ups, it is almost welded up. (just noticed the argon tank on welder is almost empty) . . some of that was used on a Bantam trailer project, but most of it was used on Hoover. . . lots of welding for sure.
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The new sheetmetal is getting a little rusty. Results of setting all winter under a slightly leaky tarp. . . hopefully though, this natural "etching" will give the paint something to hang on to. ;D
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I can take some close ups. Everything else looks great!
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Thanks Nate!
No progress this weekend, other priorities.� :(
I fooled around a little with toolbox though.� � Mine is rusted badly around the lid area.� � I have been wondering easiest way to repair that.
An idea came today to use 3/4" square tubing,� (the measurement seems right)�. . plan is to cut out one of the 4 sides.� � I think that might work.� � Below is photo of a section temporarily welded in.� (not a great photo,� but hopefully shows how the concept.
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I took some pictures of my tub ... hope this helps
Kirk
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Thanks Kirk!
Those photos answer some questions,� but present some more. :)
I will post questions tomorrow.
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After looking at Kirk's photos, this is my plan for this patch. I will be welding where the blue "stitching" is drawn on.
The bottom will essentially be flat, no overlapping.
The lip is too wide currently, and will be narrowed.
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On patch for the step. It looks from photos like there is a "notch" cut in the corner. Does this look about right? (the notch marked with red)
In the first photo, I had mistakenly tucked the 90deg "corner piece" under the side panel, I think it is supposed to be on outside of side panel? (blue markup in 2nd photo)
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Kirk's photo
Blue arrow shows the corner piece on outside of side panel.
It appears the floor extends under the step. That probably helps stiffen it up a little. If not rusted, would it extend out further (marked in green)
Are those nuts stock? or something added by PO? (pointed to with red arrows)
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One more question. What is the purpose of what looks like a big rivet head in Kirk's first photo? Something to do with toolbox maybe?
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Here are a couple photos that might help a little, but may lead to new questions. The steps are original. I did replace the tops. The rear tab was remade, but is correct. The floors are new, so I'm not sure how the flange/edge should end under step. On my first tub, I replaced the floors and just bent it over like it is in Kirkski's photo.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181201_zpsoomhg18f.jpg)
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160228_181223_zpsxlfdmmq3.jpg)
The dual holes...these are not standard on a 3A floor. They look similar to the drain holes on an M-38, but they are perpendicular to the side wall of the tub. I believe the holes on an M-38 are parallel to the side wall of the tub.
I have no idea what the rivet looking item is.
Tim
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The two holes are for the side steps. The "rivet" is the rubber plug inside the tool compartment.
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Thanks Tim, definitely confirms the "rear tab" should be on outside of body, but what is the purpose of that hole? My original has it also, but I can not guess why?
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The two holes are for the side steps. The "rivet" is the rubber plug inside the tool compartment.
Side steps. That makes sense. Never had a set of those, but considered adding them to the current project.
There is a rubber plug in the tool compartment? Dang...I learned something new.
Jeepfever, Good Question. I have no idea why the tab has the hole, but have wondered the same thing.
Tim
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I do not know the reason for the hole in the tab but some CJ-3As do not have that hole.
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I feel like I can finally see the light at end of tunnel on a milestone (removing the tub from frame)
The passenger side is mostly welded, just a few small details, and some more grinding on the welds.
Today, I rough-welded in a patch on the driver-side step. Still have some more welding to do on that. Then some work on the fuel opening, and the brackets on inside, and that side will be mostly finished also.
I wanted to be sure the tub was mostly complete, before removing from frame. Oh darn, forgot, one major repair on Hoover is the toolbox, but I will not do that before removing tub.
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I got a little time this weekend to work on Hoover. While working on fuel opening, I noticed these holes. Are they stock? I can't imagine what they might be used for.
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I got a little time this weekend to work on Hoover.� �While working on fuel opening,� I noticed these holes.� �Are they stock?� �I can't imagine what they might be used for.
Cab overpressure relief ports? ;D LOL
Mine has no Cab overpressure relief ports, now I'm am thinking I should drill more holes. not!
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Those holes could have been drilled for a chain to gas cap to keep from losing the cap?
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I got a little time this weekend to work on Hoover.� �While working on fuel opening,� I noticed these holes.� �Are they stock?� �I can't imagine what they might be used for.
Cab overpressure relief ports? ;D LOL
Mine has no Cab overpressure relief ports, now I'm am thinking I should drill more holes. not!
You did really have me laughing on that comment.� �:)
I also wondered if these were to attach some kind of PO installed security from fuel thieves.
If nobody else has these holes,� I am welding them up.
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I noticed how flimsy the driver side panel is without any inner brackets� . .� even after adding the "L" shaped bracket, the side has a lot of movement, because the wheel housing allows a lot of deflection (first photo)
Do all '3A's have bow top brackets? (second photo)� �They seem to provide a lot of support to the side panel.�
I am going to make a duplicate of the passenger side for the driver side,� �and see how much it stiffens up everything.
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I can't seem to find my "before" photo of the driver-side top bow bracket area.� �The wheel well was rusted out in that area.
I am no expert,� but these are my steps to replacement.
223 -> Plasma-cutting the patch material and rusted area at same time.� (results in guaranteed-to-fit patch panel) I use a piece of aluminum from a window screen as straight-edge. It fits my plasma torch very well, spacing the torch approx. .060 from the surface.
224 -> after cutting
225 -> patch held in place with PC harddrive magnets� ( I like having a gap,� �that ensures good weld penetration)
226 -> welded in
227 -> grinding off high spots with grinding wheel
228 -> grind/sand with flapper wheel
229 -> what I mean by flapper wheel,� a 4.5" version, and 9" version.� �These seem to work a lot better at "flattening" an area, compared to a grinding wheel.
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love the idea of cutting the replacement patch and the damage out at the same time.
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I normally would have just filled in the welds with body filler and moved on, but have been inspired by some of the craftsman on this site and others. I decided to try to see if I could make this patch even better. . . Using hammer and dolly, I pushed out the sunken weld, then hit again with flapper. The top of patch was not easily accessed by hammer, so for me, it will be a filler fix.
For a "preservation" I am happy with results.
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I mentioned earlier that the top bow brackets appear to add a lot of support to the side panel.
This is my attempt at a replacement for driver side. I duplicated the passenger side with aluminum flashing, then reversed all the bends to create mirror image. This was then flattened, and used to trace outline on patch material.
The original measures approx., .100 inch thick material, the closest I had was .115". This stuff was really hard to bend. I had to grind it thinner in the areas that got bent.
It's not perfect, but should fool most everyone, except BobW or similar. ;D
I did not get much time to work on it this weekend, still need to weld it up
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Looks really good to me.
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nice work. after just doing a bunch of body work and i am by no means a body guy, i appreciate how tough it can be. your repair looks great too.
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Thanks guys!
Bodywork can be so time consuming, for amateurs like me, but I assume also for pros. :)
I was getting ready to weld in the bow-top brackets, then realized I was missing a piece. Fabricating this "M" piece took all of my garage time this evening. :(
Still trying to figure out how to weld all this together.
- If I weld the "M" piece and the other 2 into an assembly, then it might not fit the wheel house and side too well.
- if I weld the 2 brackets to wheelhouse and side first, then I am not too sure how to position and weld the "M" piece inside.
Oh well, hopefully I will figure something out.
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Nicely done on the bracket!
For placement on the "M" spacer, stick a 1" O.D. tube in the bow pocket and butt the "M" up to the tube. Leave it a little loose for paint etc. If you have no intentions of using a top and bows, you can probably leave the spacer out all together. I promise not to tell. ;)
Tim
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Fever,
The M had me wondering all day. Got home and looked at the pockets on both '49 3As. They both have a full size insert/spacer against the tub wall. Not saying the M isn't original. Perhaps the design was changed at some point. The top of the photo is the tub wall.
(http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/athawk11/athawk11%20Willys%20White/20160412_153542_zpslpabahv3.jpg)
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For placement on the "M" spacer, stick a 1" O.D. tube in the bow pocket and butt the "M" up to the tube.�
�
I was thinking of using that same idea, and maybe using a piece of two-sided tape to hold the "M" in place. One of the problems is that mine does not rest on the floor, so has to be held up. (and it would be difficult hold the piece on inside with the tubing blocking the opening. Plus the tape would give a little clearance.
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I am hoping to have a top, of some kind, one day,� . . . so want to get this right.
Wondering now if I am trying to duplicate the passenger side,� and it is not correct.� :o . . �Maybe someone jammed a larger pipe in the "hole" at one time?� � I can put a 1.050" dia deep-well socket in the bracket, and it is a little sloppy. . .� 1.090 will start, but not fit.� � I am curious what fits in '3A tubs that are in better condition? :)
Here are a couple photos of mine,� the "M" does not come all the way to top,� or rest on the bottom.� Note also how the top rail is radiused.� �I thought this was factory,� but maybe it is from "abuse".
Oh, forgot to mention.� �I do have a set of (what I believe to be original) top bows.� �They are packed away behind other stuff so can't measure at the bottom,� but the upright tubes closer to the top measure in approx. 1.010 or slightly less.
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Tim, I am SO glad you made your post to this thread, you saved me from welding up what most likely would been a driver-side top-bow bracket that would have been too large.
To make this one, I was measuring from the top of my passenger-side bracket, that is most likely flared out.
I found a deep-wheel socket that is 1.010 and it is VERY loose in my new bracket. :o
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Here is a summary of the measurements of what I have. Could someone take measurements of what it "should" be? :)
Top bows -> I forgot how rusted mine are where they insert into the bracket, so no way to measure that. But above the curve, (right hand side of photo below), it consistently measures approx. 1.010"
Passenger-side bracket -> accepts somewhere between 1.050 and 1.090 tube (1.090 will insert about 3/8", because of the flare at top)
Rear brackets -> I can not reliably measure, because they are so banged up, but the bottom measurement of one, seems to be 1.030 or more, which does not seem right. Maybe someone forced larger tubing into it?
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Okay, here is what I came up with.� Keep in mind...65 year old vehicles and neither were treated very nice.
White Willys,
Wheel well pockets
1.0665" front to rear.� .09855" passenger to driver.
1.0425" front to rear.� �.09655" driver to passenger.
Rear pockets. These aren't perfectly round anymore.
1.049" driver side.
1.0325" passenger side.
Green Willys. Note: No rear pockets.� These are heavily painted.� These were never repaired or removed from the tub.
Wheel well pockets
1.0820" front to rear.� 1.0265" driver to passenger.
1.0115" front to rear.� .9885" Passenger to driver.
Tim
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Thanks Tim for the measurements.� �. .� �On yours it looks like the pockets would have a little clearance front-to-back,� �but tight -> driver-to-passenger.� � (assuming white one is .98 not 1.098 ?)� � This has me curious if the bow tubing is forced oval where it inserts into bracket?� -or- if the tubing does not deform -> could create the indent like on top rail of mine.
edit: I took a quick look at Jpet's thread on making bows. The drawing shows the tubing to be 1.00" . . not sure what the tolerance is on that, or why mine measures 1.010. Maybe that is not normal.
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I can't measure my bow sockets without removing the enclosures but I do have some observations. Original bows in original sockets are very tight in the rear sockets and a bit loose in the front sockets. Just my experience on these old Jeeps.
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Fever,
I want to thank you for bringing this up.� Knowing that the bows are 1" OD, I was surprised to find the wheel well pockets to be so tight.� �The green Willys has M38 bows, so I'm not concerned about the size.�
I will want the white Willys pockets to be usable, so before paint, I'll be "adjusting" them for proper fit.
Thanks again.
Tim
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BobW - thanks for the observations.� �My current thoughts -> adjust the existing (flared out) front passenger side (at the top),� and make the homemade front driver-side to be a little loose, maybe .020 over the bow dia.� . . all 4 corners of my bows need replaced so it might be a good idea for me to source the repair tubing first. (to know what size will be inserted into the brackets)� . . .My bows are 1.010",� but the repairs may be closer to 1.000 with new tubing?
Hawk - sounds like we both may have benefitted from this exchange.� :) The pockets on my new driver-side would have been way to large, if I had not heard from you.� Thank you for taking time to post the photos and dimensions of yours.
My "M" piece is too wide,� because I built it based on measurements at the top of existing flared-out passenger-side.� �I will most likely toss it, and start over.� Based on Tim's photos,� I think I will make a simple "U" shaped spacer to proper clearance.� (full length, top to bottom)� . .� I doubt anyone will notice it does not match the passenger side.� �;D
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Not much time for Jeep tinkering, but I did a little yesterday. I got a thought while traveling over weekend -> Maybe I could use a piece of 1" square tubing to make the replacement for "M" piece. (It will now be a "U" like atHawk's) It will also extend all the way to the bottom of hole, (because the more I look at passenger side, I am convinced my original did extend down, but has rusted away.
Maybe finally making some progress. The bracket is going to be 3X stronger than the other side (thicker steel, and much less rust). I am debating removing the other, putting in a replacement "U", and patching the bottom of hole (the wheel housing is rusted thru, the bottom of hole is actually that reinforcing plate.) I did not notice that from the outside, but can see if looking closely from the top. . . . Oh wait, I was thinking I was making progress, that would be going backwards. . . Oh well, the life of fixing a rust bucket.
I also narrowed the front piece of bracket. I had to grind the radius thin, hammer it narrower, then weld the inside of corner back to original thickness. (red arrow in photo below)
The pieces mocked up for photo, I hope to get some time tonite to weld it up!
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Looks great. But...aren't you a little concerned that the heavier bracket might cause a little 'Willys Lean?' ;D
Tim
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Oh no, you are right!!
Now I am going to HAVE to do the passenger side also! :)
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As this project goes sometimes, a few steps forward, take some back.
I decided to beef up the passenger side bow bracket. The stock rusty one, was SO much weaker than the new bomb-proof one. . . also cut out the metal it mounts to, because it was rusted fairly thin. Replaced that with .075 thick sheet metal.
Still not near finished, but here is photo of progress so far.
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The other step backwards . . I finally got tired of looking at the really banged up driver front fender,� and my attempt at patching and dolly/shrinking the top of fender.� �It was no where near flat.� The reinforcing bracket was in the way,� and I had no idea how to get it any better.
I almost decided to cover it all with bondo,� but could not live with that,� since it probably would have been .190 or worse thick.
Today, I cut out the mess,� and started a new patch.
You can see how dented and creased the fender is, forward of the patch, believe it or not, that looks great compared with what I cut out. ;D
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Well, we can�t call it a Flat Fender Willys if the fender isn�t �Flat�. ;)
On this particular surface, I even freak out when I see the spot weld divots used to join the fender to the brace.
Hawk
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A rainy weekend, and I thought I would get a full two days of work on Hoover, but we all know how that goes. :)
Not as much as I hoped, but did get the driver fender patch welded in. Then finished both fenders, all welding, bondo, and primer. Not "flat" to Hawk's standards, I am sure, but only used approx the volume of 2 golfballs of bondo on both fenders, (just to hide the welds) so I am happy with that. It will have dents and waves, but that only adds "character", (somewhat hidden by the "flat" paint I plan to apply one day).
I also got the top-bow brackets welded in, (no photos)
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Poor Hoover has been neglected. :'(
I was cleaning out a shed over the weekend, and came across these seats. I can't remember where I got them 20 years ago, but original thought was to put in my '2A one day.
Looks like they fit the '3A better. :) . . They appear to be originally green . . from a M-38 maybe?
I need to get back to work on the tub, it is getting rusty under a leaky tarp. :-[
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I can't tell if there is any difference when comparing an M38 and CJ3A passenger seat.
The driver seats are different. The inside leg on the M38 doesn't arch forward like the seat in your photo. The side bar just stops...and there is a perpendicular bar that attaches to the tranny hump...but further back.
Glad to see you're still nibbling away at it! ;)
Hawk
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Nibbling is right!� :(
The weather has cooled down a couple days,� and I am getting the fever again ->� reading some of the other builds that are actually making some progress.� �
I pulled the tarp off, and did some sandblasting of the welds, the fuel pocket, and some areas that got rusty. � I am hoping to get some filler and primer where I can,� to keep the bare metal from rusting while Hoover is outside.� . .� �hopefully I can get it in the garage in upcoming month and make some real progress.
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Well, ya gotta feel good about that. It's starting to look like a solid tub again.
Tim
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JeepFever,
I am enjoying your progress and look forward to more updates.
[smiley=thumbsup.gif]
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Thanks guys!
I am hoping to make some real progress this week.� I am taking some vacation time to work on projects around the house.� Hopefully that includes some Jeep time.
In past couple weeks, I moved Hoover into the garage and started filling and priming the areas almost read to paint.
Sharp eyes probably noticed that those are not original top bows. ;D . . but rather some homemade CPVC bows to hold up tarp.�
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Until now I have nothing but praise for the Classic Enterprises pieces I bought,� but am a little disappointed with the "hold-down" strap recesses, on the rear floor.
The flats at bottom are not wide enough to bolt down the "straps".
Has anyone else experienced this?� �I am guessing that my only option at this point is to try to hammer/dolly the shape?
Both my '2A and '3A have steeper angles from the rib to bottom of recess.� I wonder why Classic Enterprises did not duplicate that steep angle?
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Until now I have nothing but praise for the Classic Enterprises pieces I bought,� but am a little disappointed with the "hold-down" strap recesses, on the rear floor.
The flats at bottom are not wide enough to bolt down the "straps".
Has anyone else experienced this?� �I am guessing that my only option at this point is to try to hammer/dolly the shape?
Both my '2A and '3A have steeper angles from the rib to bottom of recess.� I wonder why Classic Enterprises did not duplicate that steep angle?
I checked my new floor pan I received a few days ago, and same issue. Seems like this item received a few downgrades from classic. The hat channels are not as aggressive either...
I don't plan on ever putting footman loops there, but just the idea is painful.
Good luck with your build
Kirk
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I am not sure how much off-roading I will be doing with Hoover, but I use those loops very often in my '2A for securing things to the floor, while on bumpy trails.
Plus I think they look cool. :-) . . it will be a minor pain though, to get them to fit and look original.
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Totally unexpected . . but I hit a major milestone today!!!
The tub is off the frame! I was hoping this week to get this done, but thought I would have to wait until my son could help this weekend. I decided to try it myself. When I built the garage, I reinforced 4 of the trusses, and put in a 8" I-beam so that I could lift things.
I could not believe how easy this worked out. I wish I had done a time-lapse video, haha . . might have been cool.
My plan was to hook in front of "center of gravity" so the nose would be high, and clear the steering wheel better.
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I LOVE the big hole that results from using the M38 floor-cover.
The tub lifted over the steering wheel, and all I had to do was spin the tub, to push the rolling chassis out of garage.
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The chassis outside of garage.
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I made this "cart" for moving the tub around in garage from a "grate" they were throwing away at work. . . I am going to start to work on tub with it standing on its tail.
I forgot how much work was still left to be done on the bottom side. Some grinding and welding.
Oh well . . a long ways to go . . but finally feel like I am making some progress.
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Nice, the. Lifting worked out swell wish I had something similar
Nice work !!!
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I have made some decent progress the past couple weeks,� but have not been taking many photos.� :(
Today, I wanted the tub out of garage to do some sandblasting,� (plus I needed the garage to work on our other Jeep).
Using the chain-hoist,� I lifted the tub high enough to roll my Bantam trailer under it.� Then rolled the combo outside.� (you have to be creative sometimes when working by yourself).� �;D
This photo is after doing some light sandblasting of the firewall.
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Today's progress -> gauges removed from dash.
Working under the dash is normally one of my least favorite tasks, but it was relatively easy with the tub turned upside-down, and the huge hole in floor as result of the M-38 floor cover. :)
Of course, Murphys Law, it was not as easy as I was expecting -> the wingnuts on the speedometer were a real pain. The studs were rusted badly, and applying sufficient torque was difficult. I ended up making a custom tool to grip them.
Even with the tool, one of the nuts was so stubborn, I was afraid the stud would break, so I used a grinder to cut out the side of the nut.
The photo is hard to decipher, but shows
1) the view thru the "big hole",
2) removed items on cardboard, and
3) the speedo wingnut, and "custom tool" circled in red.
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It's fun to watch how other 3A folks solve problems! 8-) You've reached a milestone. Tub Removal. This is where the fun starts.
Looking forward to your progress!
Tim
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I have been tinkering some with the tub past few weeks. Here is photo of bottom view. I will stray from "original" by painting the underside of tub in black. Good ol' Rustoleum. A couple coats of primer, and then couple of black. Probably not as good as something more exotic, but has lasted 20+ years on my '2A, so should do fine here.
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I used urethane caulking to fill any gaps.� �It is flexible,� tough,� and paintable.� � We will see how it holds up.
(http://www.cj3apage.com/3Ayabbfiles26/Attachments/UnderTub.jpg)
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That looks crisp and clean.
How did you resolve the footman loop pockets issue?
Tim
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Thanks!
For the pockets, I simply used body hammer to reshape the radius at bottom. Still not finished, just wanted to be sure that would work. I need to find screws with smaller heads, these were close by, to test the fit.
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Zero progress on Hoover the past few months. :-( My older son moved back home to VA, from SC, with his family. We now have granddaughter 10 minutes away, instead of 7 hours! :-)
They bought a fixer-upper house, and a lot of my free time is spent there. There is finally light at end of tunnel though, hopefully I can get back to work on Hoover in a month or so.
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Light at the end of tunnel seems a lot dimmer now. :-(
Still spending 3-4 days a week helping with son's house, and now my wife wants me to take these newly honed skills and re-model one of the bathrooms. haha
I am not complaining, life is good, but Squidtone sure has me wishing I could get back out in the garage.
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Oh man . . I did not realize I used PhotoBucket for my photos on here, and I was victim to the PhotoBucket fiasco. . . Most of the early photos are gone. :'( >:(
I will have to see if I can recreate them
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I'm right there with ya JF. As I have time, I'm slowly replacing the Photobucket links. It's truly sad what PB did to the World Wide Web.
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Yeah what a bummer.....I've replaced many of my pictures.
Oddly enough most of my PB pictures are still there, I have no idea why....maybe they just haven't gotten to me yet....
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Hoping to get some time to make some small steps forward. I pulled the tarp off of Hoover's running chassis, with thoughts of starting to disassemble.
I noticed this for first time. Looks like a bubba mod . . what should a stock bellcrank look like?
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Hey Jeepfever, nice to see it's uncovered!
Ouch,
Looks like it got hit, collapsed the crossmember tube, and was repaired.
I would guess it could be simply strengthened as is, or you could go crazy and replace the whole crossmember. Walcks sells that crossmember section #647310.
Here's a shot of my crossmember from the underside, and from the topside. Note how the underside of the tube is pinched, or creased in order to let the bellcrank bracket lay flat. I'm guessing the bracket is a cast steel which would allow it to be easily welded to the steel crossmember.
Good luck with your chassis work!
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Wow . . blink your eyes, and almost 2 years have passed. ;D
Hoping to start back on Hoover after getting diverted by lots of family projects, and a makeover of my '2A (Wilson) . . over 1-1/2 years ago, I switched priorities from Hoover to Wilson to take advantage of a once-in-lifetime opportunity to do some offroading out west. Got a chance to take Wilson to Rubicon, Moab, and Ouray. https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/dauntless-drivetrain-change_topic41152.html
So many memories, but now hoping to start tinkering on Hoover again.
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Everyone knows that a CJ-3A is better than a CJ-2A!
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Everyone knows that a CJ-3A is better than a CJ-2A!
;D
As small proof of that statement,� the '3A has an improved toolbox design . . .� �a lid with water gutter and drain.� �
That is the next step I chose in preserving Hoover.� �The water gutter, and some other sections of the toolbox need new metal.� � It would be easier just to find a toolbox in better condition,� or buy a repo,� �but I would like to preserve as much of the original metal as possible.
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I am going to try to repair the toolbox this weekend. Here is the starting point.
I wonder why the factory chose that location for the vent hole? It almost cuts into the Jeep script.
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I think your louver was mistakenly punched out in the wrong location.
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I think your louver was mistakenly punched out in the wrong location.
That would explain why I could not find, in a quick search, any photos of other '3A's with one in same location. ;D
Wonder if mine is a early Monday (still recovering) blunder, or the late Friday (Let's get out of here) blunder?
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I have not been on forum for a while. I started tinkering on Hoover a little yesterday, and reminded me that I have not posted any photos of some progress in past months. (not a lot, but better than none).
To repair original toolbox, I cut parts from another one out of a CJ-5
First photo shows the replacement for a rusted hole. There was a huge bubble gum weld here, not sure what that was for, but it had to be cut out.
The rest of photos show the gutter replacement. I used the original rivets in the D-ring
Last photo shows the toolbox setting in place. Still need to weld it in.
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This shows starting point, (photos from earlier post).
(https://cj3apage.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1566171851;topic=1212.0;attach=2811)
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(https://cj3apage.com/Forum/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1566171851;topic=1212.0;attach=2812)
A friend on '2Apage gave me a CJ5 toolbox. It had some rust issues of its own, but some of the gutter was in much better shape than Hoover's. Apparently early CJ5 toolbox lids are similar, because I was able to cut out that gutter and weld into my '3A box.
The photo below shows how I used it.
Blue sections were cut from CJ5 box . . the red sections had to be made from scratch, because the CJ5 box was rusted out there also.
(https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/uploads/4918/Toolbox1a.jpg)
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I love seeing intricate repair jobs using original sheet metal!
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I love seeing intricate repair jobs using original sheet metal!
It seems to be the hard way sometimes, but I think it is fun. I am an amateur, but watching some of the builder shows on tv, and build threads on the forums, gives me a little something to emulate.
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Really nice 'save' on the toolbox.