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Topic Summary

Posted by: oldtime
« on: November 16, 2019, 10:50:58 AM »

The copper head gaskets will help eliminate a couple engine problems.
Mainly the copper helps to dissipate the heat.
This is particularly important  from around the #2 and #3 exhaust seats.

The modern copper gaskets are of a crush design.
So they technically should not be re-used but I would disregard as long as it reseals without leakage that.
Sealer is of no use on copper gaskets and is actually a slight disadvantage concerning heat transfer.

IMHO it really would be ideal to hand make a sold copper gasket from about .060" thickness to around .125 thickness.
That certainly could provide an added boost in the CR.

Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: November 15, 2019, 10:30:09 PM »

Quote from: Bruce_W on November 15, 2019, 09:34:02 PM
  when I was racing flathead Fords, we put grease on the head gaskets so that they would not stick. Then if a head had to come off before long, the gasket would be re-useable. 

That is what I am trying to get at here, BW.  I have been using the spray copper, but would like to be able to reuse the gasket.  Now on the last go-round, I only coated the metal side of the gasket.  It stuck to the block but the fiber still stuck on the fiber side to the head even though the head had been completely cleaned, and then of course tore when I pulled the head off.  I was thinking if I didn't coat it at all and then pulled the head off, the gasket would no doubt stick to the head (which would be okay) but would release from the block.   So maybe the real question is: do I need to spray the metal side of the gasket on the block side?

BTW, This issue has to do with old tired head studs of which a few seem to want to pull from the block every time I try to torque them.  Every time I think I have all the new heli-coils in all the right places, I go to torque the head and find some new studs that want to pull up.  It's starting to drive me nuts.  New gasket, head on, torque nuts, head off, throw away gasket, clean everything, new gasket, new heli-colis, repeat, etc.  I suppose the smart move might be to just install all new heli-coils for every stud, but I swear, they all seem very solid...until I start to torque them.  I've put in 6 new heli-coils so far.  If I could reuse the gasket I wouldn't mind as much, but buying a new gasket for every failed attempt to put on the head is starting to make me a tad grumpy.  Gotta find a way to reuse these head gaskets.  I appreciate everybody's help!
Posted by: Bruce_W
« on: November 15, 2019, 09:34:02 PM »

  "Back in the day," sealer was improtant, but gasket technology has advanced a long ways since then. Some head gasket manufacturers say to put them on dry, some folks use a sealer anyway with no apparent problems. I use some copper spray, same as Hawk.
  "Back in the day", when I was racing flathead Fords, we put grease on the head gaskets so that they would not stick. Then if a head had to come off before long, the gasket would be re-useable.  ;D
  When I first started at Chevrolet, Copper-Coat was fairly new and unproven yet, most of the old-timers coated their GM head gaskets with silver spray paint. It was actually unnecessary, as the gaskets came with a coat of silver paint on them.  BW
Posted by: athawk11
« on: November 14, 2019, 07:59:15 PM »

I add a couple coats of copper spray on head gaskets, but have done them dry too with good results.  I think the key with head gaskets is to torque in the correct order...heat up the engine...let it cool a while, then re-torque to spec.
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: November 14, 2019, 06:09:38 PM »

For reasons I won't waste your time with here, I am thinking I might put my head gasket on without gasket sealer.  It is metal on the block side and composite on the head side.  Can I stick this on dry or would that be a big mistake?  Weren't they all done dry back in the day, or is a sealer a must?  Thanks for the input!
Posted by: Bruce_W
« on: July 15, 2019, 01:05:01 PM »

  I try to buy good gasket sets and use whatever's in the box. Cork pan gaskets go on dry, I find that any sealer seems to lubricate it and help it slide out. Rubber and rubber-coated gaskets are bad that way too. Tim's "partial dry" method might work here. I use a light coat of Copper-coat on most composition gaskets, mostly just to help them stay in place.
  The main thing on cork gaskets and most composition ones too, is don't overtighten the bolts. I watch the gasket as I tighten the bolts, and when I see the gasket start to squeeze, I stop. Even that may be tighter than I want them, but I don't know any other way to tell when to stop.   BW
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: July 13, 2019, 07:40:58 PM »

Bdub,  I'm glad you found this thread...What oil pan gasket do you like and do you just put it on dry?  And the timing gasket is dry as well?  And, what do you do for the TC pan?  They have a gasket for that pan now but I haven't seen where it can be purchased individually - you have to buy the entire TC kit. 

I actually like the idea of not having to dress the gaskets at all as that would be a lot less trouble and mess.  I think that's where we get into trouble is trying to place a pan with sealant on it...sometimes it gets smeared around.  If I can use just the gaskets without sealer, I would prefer to do that.  Weird though that even the gasket makers now usually say to treat the gasket with sealer. 
Posted by: Bruce_W
« on: July 13, 2019, 06:59:13 PM »

Tom and Tim,
   The point where the oil pan, front cover, front plate, and block meet up is one of the few places I will use a bit of RTV.  And you are welcome to take a look at the bottom of my engine any time.   :)  BW
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: July 12, 2019, 10:37:28 PM »

Thanks, Tim.  The black says it is particularly good for very oily areas, but I'll give the blue a look.  I've been torquing it down after an hour but I like your idea of letting it sit longer to set up.  That makes sense.  I know BW says no sealant if you use a gasket, but I've not looked under his jeeps lately - I will check that out in Sept.!  We'll see how dry it is under there.
Posted by: athawk11
« on: July 12, 2019, 10:00:44 PM »

Hi Tom,
I'm purposely being vague because most any sealant would probably work.  I also don't want to get Bruce W revved up. ;)

I like the seals you've listed for the same areas you use them on.  I should buy Permatex 2 in bulk. 

I use the Blue RTV sealant at the timing cover and oil pan.  I use it sparingly, for fear it will bulge out, break off, and end up in the oil pan.  It is just so effective at filling in the tiny little crevices on these old flanges.  I use the blue version primarily because the color contrast with the gaskets makes it easy to tell how much I have applied.  I literally put it on just thick enough that I can't see the color of the gasket below it.  If gasket color shows through, I add a bit. If too much was applied, I remove it. I can tell if there is too much by how slippery it is when I wipe it.  This is another reason I initially let it set overnight before torquing it all the way.  I don't want it to squish out too much.  It will form into a nice rubber surface, then I squeeze it a bit more with the final torque.

This is what I have found to be best for me.  I had plenty of failures prior to this combination of gaskets, technique, and sealant amounts.

Good luck.
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: July 12, 2019, 09:08:26 PM »

This is good stuff.  Rus, thanks for that 3B post.  Tim, great tip on flattening the engine plate edge to flush.  But I have to ask...what is the "favorite sealant" that you use?  I used Permatek High Tack on both sides of the timing cover gasket before.  I sort of like it, but I don't think it really is very thick to fill in gaps - it stays pretty thin.  Maybe good for a flat surface but on the goofy surface we're discussing I'm not sure.  I used Black RTV in the corners where the two pans meet, and I like Permatex 2 for the threads of all the bolts.  I thought I had it nice and sealed, but still a drip at the driver side corner.  I do have the new Fel-Pro gasket - kind of a black rubber stuff.  It looks good.  What gasket sealer do you use for a timing cover and oil pan?  Thanks a lot!
Posted by: athawk11
« on: July 12, 2019, 06:04:19 PM »

My routine is to set the timing cover with the crank/belt pulley temporarily set in position.� This assures the timing cover seal around the pulley is centered prior to tightening down the timing cover bolts.�

With the timing cover in place, the above process creates the complete base/flange surface that the oil pan attaches to.� Because the front engine plate is sandwiched between the timing cover and the engine block, this creates a potential uneven surface, thus a possible leak point when the oil pan is mounted.� I have filed down the lower edge of the front engine plate to "even out" the mounting surface.� Even filing isn't enough to assure a flat mating surface in this area.� I will ad a decent glob of my favorite sealant at this area before installing the oil pan.

I and a huge fan of the Felpro oil pan gasket.� It is a fibrous gasket and is far more tolerant than the cork gasket if you happen to be the type that over tightens the oil pan bolts.� I add a light coating of my favorite sealant to both sides of the oil pan gasket.� I set the oil pan and only hand-tighten the bolts...just enough to get the sealant to start squishing out.� I leave it for a day, then torque the bolts to maybe 5 pounds max...which ain't much.�

Now, my Jeep still leaks, but not from the oil pan edge, or the timing cover. ;)
Posted by: Rus Curtis
« on: July 12, 2019, 04:13:03 PM »

It's amazing what you can forget after it's done and put away!  I couldn't for the life of me picture how they fit together - but remember photos.  So I just had to search for that.

On the CJ3B Page, Eric Lawson did an F-head rebuild and there's detailed pictures.  Specifically on page 7, he describes sealing between the cover and pan:

http://cj3b.info/Engine/Rebuild7.html


Using those images, it seems the pan will attach directly to the bottom of the gear cover.  However, I do know that there could be issues that would drive one to remove just the gear cover so I don't know if there's a specific sequence of 1st and 2nd but I will say I put my gear cover on first then smeared it before adding the pan and gasket.

Hope this helps!
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: July 12, 2019, 03:52:53 PM »

I plan to address this leak at the next oil change and am wondering the best procedure.  What products do you use, do you coat both sides of the gaskets, and, in what order do you put it all back together?  Timing cover on first, or oil pan on first.  I'm guessing you want to bolt the pan on second which would press it up into the timing cover, but I really am not sure having never had to do this before.  What say you?

Thanks a lot!