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Topic Summary

Posted by: Bob W
« on: October 09, 2016, 09:25:59 PM »

Quote
I searched your book and didn't find anything on the metallurgy of components or the block back in the day, but am wondering if you found information on this when you were putting your book together?

I don't have any specifics on the metallurgy of the blocks except that the later ones with CU CR in the casting number had more Copper Chromium than previously.
Posted by: Oilleaker1
« on: October 09, 2016, 07:10:34 AM »

How about the dirty 30's when they wired old tire carcases over their bald tread tires that still held air, and rawhide rod bearings that would run for 10,000 miles? Amazing. John
Posted by: 1955CJ-5
« on: October 08, 2016, 10:49:39 PM »

It is amazing what they accomplished way back when....I think much of what we use today was first used in water and steam powered industrial applications...

This is a very interesting series about the industrial revolution and  steam power...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTCUDfFP9tc
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: October 08, 2016, 09:47:06 PM »

Randy, I've gotta say I was quite surprised to see that an 1839 patent on those babbitt metal formulas were still the go-to in the 1950's and I believe still are used today in some instances.  Very impressive the talents of the leaders of the "industrial revolution"!  From what I could tell in the brief Wiki article I read, the metals had a definite break-in period during which they would then stabilize and perform as intended.  I suppose there was a lot of trial and error, but how they figured these things out is beyond me.  Thanks a lot for sharing this with us.
Posted by: 1955CJ-5
« on: October 08, 2016, 09:25:45 PM »

I wonder if over the years using leaded fuel and wearing out several sets of crank and rod bearings perhaps the lead and copper might leach into the block casting and then shows up in the oil analysis.

They may be comparing these cast iron blocks to more modern alloy blocks, but who knows...

Interesting discussion...

Randy
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: October 08, 2016, 08:50:49 PM »

Bob, that report is interesting.  I'll try to post the one I got from Wix.  I'm sure lead fuel isn't an issue for me as I have recent new lines and tank. 

I read the Wikipedia article on the babbitt bearing metals that 1955 referenced and that is also a good read and may help explain things somewhat. 

Bob, I searched your book and didn't find anything on the metallurgy of components or the block back in the day, but am wondering if you found information on this when you were putting your book together? 
Posted by: Bob W
« on: October 08, 2016, 07:40:40 PM »

Here is an oil analysis I had done on a normal L134 engine.

http://cj3a.info/temp/D28417.pdf
Posted by: 1955CJ-5
« on: October 08, 2016, 01:30:09 PM »

When I had the Model A engine rebuilt I learned a (very) little about babbitt....and I was surprised to learn that modern insert bearings still use babbitt bonded to a steel shell.

So I looked up babbitt to see what it's made of, and it has both lead and copper in it, but there are a lot of different varieties..

I guess I would like to know what they used as a benchmark for normal lead and copper in oil.

I had a link but it doesn't work once posted...but i found it on google...look for babbitt alloy

There is table showing what the babbitt is made of if you scroll down...
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: October 08, 2016, 11:18:46 AM »

Tim, I have a screw on oil filter which is basically just a steel plate, but I am intrigued by the metals making up the block.  Hadn't thought of that but I know that using lead back in the day was a whole lot more common than now.  I'm going to have to open Bob's book and see if I can find something on this.

Oilly, you may be right on the additives.  I do put in a bottle of Rislone Zinc treatment with each oil change.  I emailed them to see what else it might have in it.  I have also been using Sta-Bil Marine 360 in the gas.  And, now that I think of it, that old oil also had a bottle of Blue Devil Oil Seal treatment in it.  I have no idea what's in that stuff.  BTW...it doesn't work on a rope seal, but it did correct a small drip at the front bearing seal.

I do like the idea of sucking lead and copper out of the atmosphere!  Can't wait to visit you and suck some of that gold out of the atmosphere riding around in the Black Hills!
Posted by: Oilleaker1
« on: October 08, 2016, 07:31:33 AM »

Any additive in the oil you put in? I've heard of trucking companys that use this to tell if a engine is going away. High mileage units. Mybe it was all the mines we were near and your Jeep sucked copper and lead out of the atmosphere?  ;) John
Posted by: athawk11
« on: October 08, 2016, 12:12:07 AM »

That's interesting Tom.  I don't have answers.  I can speculate, but with no basis in fact.

Possibly some solder repairs to the oil pan or oil filter housing?  I think I remember seeing brazing around the hose inlets on the filter, and oil drain hole on the pan... on mine.

Old engine block metallurgy that wouldn't be seen in a modern engine block?
 
Not sure what metals were used back in the day but I believe I read that some of the casting numbers tell us a little about the makeup of the block.

Tim 
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: October 07, 2016, 09:53:06 PM »

Just for grins, I bought a Wix oil analysis kit   https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CSEUQ0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1     to see what would come back as far as my oil is concerned.  I changed the oil last week and mailed the sample off to their lab in Portland, Or.  I just got the email results tonight. 

My sample had 3000 miles on it.  The only parameter that seems to be out of their spec. is the lead and copper values.  My engine oil seems to be high in lead (71 ppm) and copper (67 ppm).  They don't say what is "normal" so I don't have much of a reference to go by.  Judging from my other vehicles, <10 ppm would be normal for both minerals.  At least on a modern engine, that is. 

In their notes they say that the high copper value is due to leaching from the oil cooler and of no concern.  But as we know, we don't have oil coolers, so the copper must be coming from somewhere else. 

They mentioned that the lead would indicate bearing wear. 

So, my questions to my Willys brethren...What in the 134L engine is copper, and what is lead?  Maybe there is lead solder?  What bearings have lead in them?  What in the engine is copper?  At first I thought the culprit may be the radiator lead solder and copper, but they did say there was no water or antifreeze in the oil.

Probably nothing I can do about these wear parts, but I am curious about just what might be wearing abnormally.  Granted, "abnormal" for a modern engine may be "normal" for the Go Devil!  Thanks for your input.