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Topic Summary

Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: April 02, 2016, 09:32:11 AM »

The motor is back in. The 3A flywheel I just had resurfaced turned out to have too many flaws (the worst of which was a stripped out clutch assembly screw hole that could not be retapped...). I wish I had inspected it closer before paying to have it resurfaced. Anyways, I took the old 3A ring gear and installed it onto the MB flywheel. Reinstalled everything. No more starter grinding. Hooray.

The culprit obviously was the new ring gear. I'm still not sure if it is due to a poorly manufactured ring gear or something else. The straight cut teeth on the new gear are larger in almost every way than the beveled teeth of the old gear but this really isn't a fair comparison. The gray 3A has a straight cut ring gear and I'd like to match the new one up to it to see how it compares. I'm not so curious that I'm going to pull another motor to find out though!



Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: April 01, 2016, 08:26:35 AM »

Quote
Removing the engine seems to be as much of a challenge for you as changing the spark plugs is for me.� No biggie.�

Spark plugs are much too difficult for me. You can see I left them in  ;D
Posted by: Jeff_M
« on: April 01, 2016, 08:04:05 AM »

Removing the engine seems to be as much of a challenge for you as changing the spark plugs is for me.  No biggie. 
Posted by: Oilleaker1
« on: April 01, 2016, 07:23:28 AM »

Practice makes perfect, and boy do you know how to practice. Definately not a lazy sort. Go get em Ryan! Oilly
Posted by: athawk11
« on: March 31, 2016, 10:21:16 PM »

Well...that bites.  At the same time, I had a feeling you weren't going to let this go.

Tim
Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: March 31, 2016, 09:05:17 PM »

Sometimes one just needs to grab the bull by the horns. I'm having the old flywheel resurfaced tomorrow and we'll try that one.

Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: March 31, 2016, 08:04:08 AM »

Tim- I think it's a little of both but mostly the latter - not disengaging far enough and fast enough to avoid getting clipped by the ring gear on the way out. Impossible to tell for sure as I can't see it happening but it sure sounds that way.

I don't know what to try next. I think I'll just leave it alone and move onto something else for awhile. I've spent so much time on the starter the past week I have had no chance to even tune the "new" motor that's in� there. From the 2 minutes of run time I've had with it it sounds glorious.
Posted by: athawk11
« on: March 30, 2016, 11:04:37 PM »

Or...

Not disengaging far enough to avoid being hit by the ring gear once the engine begins to spin on its own?

Tim
Posted by: athawk11
« on: March 30, 2016, 11:00:15 PM »

I don't know enough about these starters, but I thought I'd offer an observation you've probably already noticed.  The chipping is on the top of the gear teeth.  Would this mean the gear isn't fully engaged on the ring gear when it starts to spin?   Almost as if it's clipping the forward face of the ring gear, prior to it slipping into position.

Tim
Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: March 30, 2016, 09:07:55 PM »

Still running in circles. I confirmed that the starter push rod pedal is not binding on anything. Next, I swapped push rod pedals with the gray 3A. There's no doubt the bend in the pedal and adjustment of the starter button are important but no matter what I did I couldn't get it to solve my problem. I even swapped batteries just to rule that out.

Below are pics of the gray 3A starter that I tried on the red one. This starter was just overhauled a couple weeks ago and has started the gray 3A maybe three times since then. The teeth were dressed smooth during the overhaul. You can see where they've been chewed on, presumably now from the red 3A test.







The "grinding" still seems to be the worst when the engine starts to fire - as if the starter drive doesn't disengage as fast as it should.

Either way, I'm not in any big hurry to pull the motor and change flywheels especially since I do not know for certain that would even solve the problem (although I think it would...). I might as well just run it. Worst case is I destroy the ring gear that I was going to have to change anyways and beat up the old starter which is probably already due for an overhaul. Best case is the gears wear just a bit and learn to mesh a little more quietly.

Besides, I have a rebuilt trans and TC installed that I haven't even tested yet. No sense in pulling the motor until I know whether or not the rest of the drivetrain needs to come back out. New and much needed clutch cable arriving later this week so we should be mobile again. Nothing like a full first-time test drive to discover more catasrophes.... ;D
Posted by: aboyandhisdog
« on: March 30, 2016, 11:16:29 AM »

Ryan, you make a good point about that push rod.  I had one on mine that had been mostly straightened out as I recall, with only a small 90 degree bend at the end.  I bought a new one from Walcks with all of the different bends in it and it really did make a difference.  I believe the angle at which it hits the button is more straight on.
Posted by: athawk11
« on: March 30, 2016, 11:07:44 AM »

So a smidgen over 1/32" difference in ring gear thickness.  I can't see that being a factor.

Looking forward to the culprit.

Tim 
Posted by: Ryan_M
« on: March 30, 2016, 08:08:25 AM »

I appreciate all the input. Even if it's just random thoughts one of them is bound to be the culprit. I have both early and late 3A starters that I have tried and the result is the same with both, even after adjusting the button.

Engine plate thickness on the gray 3A, the old red 3A motor, and the new MB motor are all the same: 0.102"

The new ring gear teeth themselves are slightly smaller in front to back depth. The new teeth on the MB flywheel are 0.34" and the gray 3A and old red 3A teeth measure 0.378".

I am out of time this morning but I have a couple other things I want to rule out. I'd like to see what is happening at the starter when I push the starter pedal. Since I only have one set of eyes I will set up a camera to do this. Is there a chance the starter pushrod is fetching up on something? The bottom of the coil maybe? That might be limiting the distance of the throw. Hopefully I get home early enough tonight to mess around some more.
Posted by: garage gnome
« on: March 30, 2016, 06:15:48 AM »

I wish I had my engine back together so I could measure for you
Posted by: athawk11
« on: March 29, 2016, 09:37:19 PM »

Ryan,
I think Tom's input is more helpful than mine would be.� I don't have a 3A starter on any of my Willys.� I had to go mess with my spare 3A starter just to understand what Tom was talking about.� :-?

I did measure the throw on this starter.� The adjusting screw is about 3/16" from being driven all the way home.� When I push the lever, the drive gear moves 5/16" before it touches the start button.� When I push the start button all the way home, the drive gear moves an additional 1/4".� So, a total of 9/16" throw when fully pushed.�

None of this is probably helpful to your predicament.� I'm pretty sure you've eliminated the starter as the issue.� I don't even know if this starter works.

Were you able to check the thickness of the rear plates?� Any difference?

Tim

Edit...Please note: My 3A starter is the later version.  Yours is the earlier version...which makes my input even more useless :-[